Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hepfner.

Ms. Tait, normally, it would now be the Bloc Québécois' turn to ask questions, but since all the members of that party are busy chairing the meeting, I am going to propose that Mr. Julian from the NDP take the floor for six minutes. Afterwards, I shall ask you some questions as well.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have no problem with you asking a few questions now.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

No, go ahead, please, Mr. Julian. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here at this important discussion.

As you cited—and I think Ms. Hepfner asked the question—a Conservative member of this committee stated, in the most irresponsible and incendiary way possible, that CBC journalists were on the side of terrorists. She has not apologized. She has not in any way taken responsibility for those appalling comments.

I note that 33 journalists or members of the media have been killed so far in Israel and Gaza. They were covering the war. You mentioned, in your opening statement, the issue of the physical safety of your journalists. Do you feel comments like that in any way contribute to an environment where journalists' safety may be put in peril?

[Catherine Tait]

Absolutely, Mr. Julian.

The reality is that 363 journalists were imprisoned last year around the world. Eighty-six were killed last year alone, according to the UN. As you said, 33 have been killed just in this conflict.

We know that, here at home, we are not immune. We have the highest incidence of online attacks, which have knock-on effects in the physical environment. We've had to remove logos from our trucks. We've had to protect our journalists during demonstrations. We've had to begin domestic war-zone training. We've always had training for journalists who go into war zones or conflict areas, but now we do it domestically. It is an extremely serious issue.

It's why, last year, we launched the online harm initiative called #NotOK or #CestAssez. I invite you to visit it. It's an open-source platform. We are developing, along with all our news colleagues here in Canada, a guideline for newsrooms to manage the post-traumatic stress syndrome that many of our journalists are suffering from.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for that. I certainly hope the member of the Conservative Party will apologize for what are appallingly irresponsible comments.

I want to come back to Ms. Lantsman's questions.

The Conservatives have been spreading disinformation. They've never apologized. They've never retracted it. They've never clarified their remarks. The attribution of the word “terrorist”, as you correctly pointed out, has been used consistently in CBC coverage. There is the appalling, horrible terrorist attack that killed over 1,400 Israelis. We're now seeing the horrible civilian casualties in Gaza. I have been watching CBC coverage, and the word “terrorist” has been used. It's always attributed, of course, but it's used consistently.

Can you, in a sense, refute Ms. Lantsman's contention that the word “terrorist” has not been used on the CBC network? When it has been used—and it has been used frequently—it has always been attributed.

[Catherine Tait]

That is correct.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I want to come to the other bit of disinformation, which is regarding the Associated Press article. Ms. Lantsman correctly identified what the headline said. The CBC also ran stories that updated the horrible situation that existed with the hospital in Gaza.

How many articles have been updated and provided with more information, as more information came out about the role that Islamic Jihad's failed rocket played in killing those people?

[Catherine Tait]

It was several times, attributing the UN conclusion and other sources, I would say.

It's important to understand that, in any conflict, context is extremely important. That's why we cited the source in the case of the Palestinian health authority, and then according to the Israeli government, or according to the UN. It's extremely important. Context, especially in a fast-moving situation, is critical. You cannot look at an article in isolation. You have to look at the body of work, which is what you're suggesting. There are many articles that point to a bigger story.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for that.

It's disinformation to point to one article when there's a series of other articles.

[Catherine Tait]

That's correct.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

If Ms. Lantsman was being honest, she would show the evolution of the reporting from CBC on that issue as more information came out, as we've seen with CNN and with BBC.

You mentioned foreign interference. This is profoundly disturbing. Last weekend, we learned through Canadaland, which has done terrific work, that a lot of the Conservative material and videos don't come from Canada; they come from a shop in Egypt that is financed, apparently, through the United States. We also know about the Putin regime and its use of the Internet Research Bureau to spread disinformation, false information.

You mentioned foreign interference. To what extent is that part of this sort of coordinated attack on institutions like the CBC? Have you been able to determine where this foreign interference is coming from that seems to be targeting CBC journalists?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Please give a short answer, Ms. Tait.

[Catherine Tait]

I'll do my best.

The reality is that our world has changed. Every day there are fake CBC and Radio-Canada websites being put up. Every day we have deep fakes, having a journalist like Ian Hanomansing selling health food products. Each day we have this kind of infiltration, whether it's from foreign actors—and our particular concern is during federal elections—or people seeking to make money on the Internet.

These bad actors have targeted the most trustworthy.... I really want to underline for the record that CBC/Radio-Canada remains, according to 75% of Canadians, the most trustworthy source of news in this country. We are spending money on cybersecurity. We are joining our international colleagues at the BBC, at Reuters and all over the world in a trusted news initiative to try to combat an absolute tsunami of disinformation. What is truly disturbing is when the disinformation is coming from our own country. That is the worry. We really need to stand united, arms linked, to fight what is an extremely disturbing trend.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian, your time is up.

Ms. Tait, I would like to ask you a few questions on a topic that many people are talking about this morning, i.e., comments made by Ms. Thomas in committee. Last week, she said that if CBC/Radio-Canada did not directly associate Hamas with terrorism, it was because the CBC was siding with the terrorists.

Shortly thereafter, people on the ground in Israel reported that a Radio-Canada journalist, Jean-François Bélanger, had his camera literally ripped off him. The camera's memory cards were taken out. That's pretty aggressive.

If this kind of narrative is kept up and not eliminated, do you fear that journalists on the ground will be faced with increasingly hostile conditions?

[Catherine Tait]

Absolutely.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

You made a connection earlier, which I thought was very relevant, with what happened during the trucker convoy two winters ago. During that period, journalists had to erase any text or logo from their vehicles indicating their media outlet. Otherwise, depending on the media they belonged to, they ran the risk of being attacked by demonstrators.

[Catherine Tait]

If I may add something else, we not only have journalists, but also producers, cameramen and fixers or interpretive guides, the people on the ground who provide interpretation or identify contacts for us. It is a team, and a number of teams are working on the ground, whether it is in Ukraine or in Israel.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

We obviously recognize that politicians have a duty to be responsible in the comments they make.

That said, do you not get the impression that journalism today, as it has evolved over the past 20 or 30 years, with the live coverage that CNN has introduced, among other things, means that journalists probably spend much less time doing research? The work takes place in real time, as it were, in close proximity to the events being covered, which leaves little time to check sources in certain cases, particularly in conflict situations.

Do you feel that journalists themselves are contributing to the fact that people have slightly less trust in the news media? I do acknowledge that politicians have to be careful about the language they use when talking about news media, particularly CBC/Radio-Canada, but do you think that journalists should take a good hard look at themselves and their practices in order to restore citizens' trust?

[Catherine Tait]

We know very well that trust in traditional media, social media in particular and public broadcasters is declining.

We know very well that trust in governments, politicians and airlines, among others, is also on the decline. Trust is receding everywhere, and it's not because of journalism. It's a social phenomenon—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I would say that news journalism has an important role to play in democracy, which airlines do not. The role of the news media in this regard should be taken much more seriously. Would you agree?

[Catherine Tait]

I agree with that, of course, but I don't want to draw a direct link between a very busy news cycle and an erosion in trust that undermines journalism. That's why we have journalistic standards and practices that guide us in all our actions and in all our reporting.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I would now like to move on to another issue.

We talk a lot about the CBC, but a little less about Radio-Canada. And yet Radio-Canada is on my mind a great deal, because there are differences of opinion between the CBC and Radio-Canada. There are differences between the CBC and Radio-Canada. I'm talking about cultural differences.

In fact, we were all shocked by the departure of Michel Bissonnette. We were also left wondering why he left. We've heard rumours of tension within the organization. As I referred to earlier, we also heard that there were differences of opinion, particularly with regard to applying equity, diversity and inclusion criteria.

Do you have the impression that everything is hunky-dory within the organization at the moment?

[Catherine Tait]

We know very well that there are significant cultural differences in Canada, and not only between anglophones and francophones. That is what is interesting and exciting for Canadians.

I can tell you that everything is going very well. We agree on our journalistic standards and practices, and the two people in charge of journalism, Brodie Fenlon and Luce Julien, work very closely together.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

You are referring to news, but I'm talking about the organization as a whole.