Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2025

[Zoe Royer, Liberal, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Sonoda, on the business of copyright, what I'm hearing is that we should double down or triple down, that we should not amend it to allow for data and text mining. Can you speak further to the importance of this?

[Warren Sonoda]

When we say “data”, we are referencing works of art. We are referencing creative works that we make. That's the data we're talking about.

I just bumped into Mr. Myles, and I just want to say that Inner Ninja, his collaboration with Classified, has a fantastic video directed by R.T., one of my best friends. Let's say that someone goes out and prompts, “I want to see 'Inner Ginger', with Mr. Myles and Classified, with red hair,” and then it becomes a breakout hit. It gets all these views; it racks it up. Then, whatever platform the person prompted it on gets the click amount that they get. Where's the compensation in that? How is that protected under all the things we're talking about here?

You mentioned Universal Music and how it's working through these problems. I think this is the stuff that keeps us up at night.

That's, I guess, my answer to you.

[Zoe Royer, Liberal, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

That's amazing.

I think I have a minute left. Mr. Myles was mentioned. I wonder if he'd like to weigh in on that right now.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

I think it's interesting, because you were talking about how parody is part of art, Eric, when you were speaking early—it was super interesting—and how it has been part of the history of art.

When we talk about parody, like the example Mr. Sonoda just mentioned.... When Weird Al does a song, he pays a licensing fee. It's not like it's an original song.

[Warren Sonoda]

This is when he writes a song.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

When he does Amish Paradise, Coolio gets money for that. It's not that parody hasn't been done before, but there's a licensing agreement. There's a way to do it in which the original creator gets money. To equate the two might be.... As a history of something that's been happening, yes, it's been happening, but it's happened on the back of a licensing system that respects the original creator and the original copyright.

I don't know if you have anything to say to that.

[Warren Sonoda]

I appreciate that, Mr. Myles.

I also want to talk about economies of scale. I just followed Eric on his Insta. You should too. It's really cool. He does amazing work.

You referenced $6 billion for the gaming industry in Canada. Was that the number?

[Paul Fogolin]

It was $5.1 billion.

[Warren Sonoda]

It's $5.1 billion. The Canadian screen sector, the media sector, is $11 billion. I just wrapped The Trades on Crave TV last Friday. I came back on Saturday to watch the Jays be two outs away. I got on a plane and came here. In the midst of that, we employed over 100 people on this television production—really good, talented Canadian artists and craftspeople. Our number one is Robb Wells, who plays Ricky on Trailer Park Boys.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

We are over time for this question, if you could just wrap it up. We want to hear your point.

[Warren Sonoda]

When we talk about all the things we're talking about today, let's not forget that this is a huge economic driver for Canada. Constituents in all of your ridings work in this industry, whether it's film and television, gaming or art. Let's not forget that that's what we're also protecting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I couldn't agree more with what Mr. Sonoda just said. I worked in television for a long time, and humans are what makes this industry so rich. I don't think the value of human creation will disappear from television or production as a whole anytime soon.

Mr. Fogolin, I met last week with people from the video game industry, and it was a very interesting meeting. It's a very strong industry in Quebec, so we know about it, but I learned that it's also strong in other parts of the country. It's very dynamic. You just referred to the industry's $5.1‑billion contribution to the economy.

I imagine your industry uses AI a lot. I mean, it's video games, so presumably, AI is welcomed and widely used.

That said, are jobs held by humans under threat because of AI in the video game industry?

[Paul Fogolin]

Thanks for the question, and thanks again for meeting with our group last week.

What my members are telling me about AI and how they're using it is that it's actually caused a net increase in employment, because you need those creators. They are essential, and not just in our industry. We work with members from film and television. They work with artists. We want to be able to hire people like Eric to work on games. In addition to that, they're needing to hire AI experts for things like AI ethics, for data mining, for large language models. That's adding a whole new layer.

A lot of our members are working closely with academic institutions, many of them in Quebec, such as UQAT and Université de Montréal, as well as UBC, on AI and partnering. We see it as a net benefit and something that's going to be helping to drive those jobs and increase opportunity.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Are there video games out there entirely generated by AI?

[Paul Fogolin]

To my knowledge, they do not. Everybody is talking about AI slop in visual mediums. Do those games exist on some platforms? Possibly they do, but not on our member platforms.

That's why I wanted to make the point very clear in my opening remarks. This is a highly competitive industry. Thousands and thousands of games come out every year. Especially when you're talking about AAA titles that take three to five years to make, the expectations of players are high. Anybody who plays games wants the best graphics, the best sound and the best stories. That human touch is going to be essential. That's the differentiator. General AI.... Again, early-stage generative AI is a valuable tool, but beyond that, you need that human touch.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Bischoff, is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Your time is up, Mr. Champoux. I apologize.

Mr. Waugh, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

Thank you for being here.

Yes, you do need the human touch.

We just finished the World Series. Trajekt Arc, a product from a company out of Waterloo, had a big factor in the World Series, and everyone is wondering how that happened. It was an AI pitching simulator. The Blue Jays had a 22-year-old, a young pitcher, Trey Yesavage, whom nobody saw. His trajectory was above where a pitch would normally begin.

Joshua Pope, who is from Waterloo, projected the pitching simulator and started selling this to Major League Baseball, if you don't mind. The Dodgers sent every one of their hitters a video of Trey Yesavage with this simulator. It didn't help them. He still struck out 12, but maybe it did help them on Saturday night when they got a run off him.

Mr. Fogolin, you mentioned 34,000-plus jobs in this country. After watching the World Series, everybody went to Waterloo and did a story on the Trajekt Arc. As you said, you're looking at stadiums, but now I am looking at an innovation, a creative innovation, by a Canadian company that has changed Major League Baseball, how they go forward. Can you talk about that?

The Yankees didn't have that pitching simulator. When we first saw him in the dugout, we wondered how this guy was doing that. Then the Dodgers learned from that.

AI is coming. It's already here. In fact, I'm going to mention ABS, or the automated ball-strike system. We all question the umpires behind the plate, but that's going to be AI generated. Talk about this, if you don't mind.

[Paul Fogolin]

Do you want me to talk about it from the perspective of video games and entertainment software?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

From a video game view, yes.

[Paul Fogolin]

I love the question. First of all, the wounds are soft for the Jays loss, so seeing Warren's hat gives me mixed emotions. The boys did a great job, though, and we should all be happy that they gave us so much joy.

I am glad that you mentioned the technological innovations in this country. A lot of the technological innovations come from spinoffs from game design technology. In particular, ESAC authored a report a few years ago, called “Beyond Entertainment”. While we didn't look at that technology in particular, we had myriad case studies of technology that's been developed in the video game process and that's being used at children's hospitals, by mental health experts and in the education process.

I think these kinds of developments are going to be essential, not just to making cutting-edge entertainment software but also expanding to other areas.

With technology like the one you mentioned, the video game development process has a role to play in creating these sorts of new technologies. I don't mean that particular one—I don't like to hear that it maybe helped our opponents—but in all seriousness, we're in the entertainment business. It's in our name. However, there are some serious, non-entertainment benefits that come from the technology that the industry spurs. It's because of that massive audience for games made in Canada that we and our members have the opportunity to invest in these technologies.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

In your opening statement, you said, “safe and welcoming”. I'm looking at the ESA website, and it says, “AI is an invaluable tool in protecting players and promoting safety.” How are we doing it in Canada? You did mention it off the top.

[Paul Fogolin]

Thanks for bringing that up. I mentioned the content moderation tools and player safety. Our industry is very proud of our shared value on player safety. It's not a competitive issue in the video game industry. All our members agree that player safety is paramount.

Whether it's a console, like a Nintendo, an Xbox or a PlayStation, or whether it's the games themselves, a lot of games are social. They're online, whether it's large sports games or action games. There is a myriad of them. These have chat functions, and they have communication tools.

Our industry has wonderful parental controls, tools that you can use to set settings, to limit who players can talk to or to limit play time. Live chat moderation, though, is a little more difficult. You can imagine, if you're on a headset, talking in the middle of the game: People can say some pretty offensive things. With a tool like AI—I mentioned Activision Blizzard with Call of Duty, and I know it's been used by Riot Games in Valorant—they can use it in a very quick fashion to catch potentially toxic language, which helps to add another layer to that overall perspective on player safety.

Does that help to answer your question?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon South, SK]

Yes.

Thank you very much.