Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 19th, 2025

[Valerie Gideon]

No.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Of the tens of thousands of artworks that the gallery has in its warehouses and on its walls, regardless of their value, do you think it has lost any?

[Valerie Gideon]

I can't answer that question.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I understand, but I find it concerning that someone who has artworks in their custody would manage to lose some of them, if only a few. I understand that these indigenous artworks were lent to government offices, but the fact that there was no mechanism for recording them gives me the impression that they were not assigned any value and they were lent to someone who needed them to decorate a wall because nobody knew what to do with them.

When the truth and reconciliation process emerged, we suddenly started assigning importance to first nations heritage. That was when it was found that 132 artworks had been lost from a collection that was in our custody. People seem to be satisfied that 12 have been located, but that leaves 120. Despite this, we are told it is not very serious because it is a small part of a $14 million collection.

So I have a lot of questions, and what I am learning today is much more concerning than I was expecting. In addition, we are told that in most cases, the last location of the artworks in question is known, but they have not been located. I don't understand that sentence. I would like you to help me understand it.

How can you say that you don't know where something is and it isn't where it was the last time, but it hasn't been lost? Enlighten me a bit.

[Valerie Gideon]

It is also important to note that we have transitioned to a new information system, so we think that in some cases these are duplicates.

When the federal government put these initiatives in place, not much value was placed on works of contemporary indigenous artists in Canada. The federal government therefore showed leadership by finding a way to offer remuneration to indigenous artists in an environment where there was not a lot of demand for these artworks. So it is nice to see that things have evolved and the members of this committee see the significant value of this collection. We take this very seriously, I assure you.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Okay.

What have you put in place to locate the unaccounted for artworks as fast as possible and avoid this happening again? What compensation or reassurance can you offer the artists whose works were put in your care at a time when they were not worth anything? They actually must not have been very happy that their works were not worth anything. An artist's works are worth something to them. An artist puts their heart and soul into what they create. Whether a work is worth $500 in your eyes or $50,000 in someone else's eyes, that is not what motivates the artist.

What process have you established for recovering these artworks? Regardless of value, it has to be done.

What is your relationship with the artists who have been hurt in this tale?

[Valerie Gideon]

You have asked several questions, but I can talk about the measures we have put in place.

We are now using an automated system to make sure we manage our collection properly, a system used by other museums and by Global Affairs Canada. We have received a Category A designation based on the protocols we have to put in place. We also follow Treasury Board Secretariat policies and directives. These are measures that we have implemented. In addition, we have a team in our department that continues to refine the information about the collection to maintain its integrity.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Have you identified the artists? Do you have any contact with the artists?

[Valerie Gideon]

Yes, we have a lot of contact with the artists.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm talking about the ones whose works have been lost.

[Valerie Gideon]

We have over 560 artists with whom we maintain communication.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You have contact even with the ones whose works have been lost, right?

[Valerie Gideon]

I would have to check whether those artists are all living and are among the ones who receive communications directly. We have 560 artists with whom we communicate regularly, as well as 489 institutions, the provinces and territories, cultural centres, museums and libraries.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

If I were an heir of an artist who had created works in your custody and I heard your testimony, I would think that there seems to have been no effort to locate those artists and compensate them.

I think my time is nearly up, but we will definitely come back to this. I am stunned by what I am hearing today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Mr. Schmale, welcome to the heritage committee.

You have the floor now for five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. Thank you for joining us here today.

I am picking up on where we left off on Monday with Minister Alty, when we were talking about this exact subject.

Deputy Minister, the audit picked up on a number of gaps within the handling of these very valuable pieces, one of which was governance. At the time, there was no clear senior-level accountability for this collection. There was nobody who actually reported to the deputy minister.

You said that this is now fixed. Is that correct? You actually have someone reporting to you about this collection now.

[Valerie Gideon]

For several years, the director of the Indigenous Art Centre would report to the corporate secretary, who would report to the deputy minister. That is still the structure we have now. The issue is that the position of director of the art centre has been vacant for a few years, so the corporate secretary has ensured that an executive within the corporate secretary office is now also helping to support that team.

When Rob and I started in the department, we did have someone who was acting as the director of the art centre. We were hoping that that individual would become permanent in the role, but the individual decided to move on for another opportunity. That happens in the public service.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

We still have some pieces that went missing, which we didn't find out until an audit actually happened. This has been happening for a while. As the minister pointed out on Monday in committee, in INAN, this has been happening for quite some time.

We have a storage facility that was very insecure in terms of gaps within security protocols and otherwise.

Has anybody been held accountable for the failures along the way?

[Valerie Gideon]

When you complete an internal audit, as part of the management response action plan you actually identify the senior leaders who are accountable for each of the actions in the action plan. Ultimately, that action plan reports not just to the deputy, but we also have a departmental audit committee that will review the progress with respect to the action plan commitments that are made in the audit. That's also why these audits are public.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Has somebody been held accountable?

[Valerie Gideon]

Do you mean for this particular audit that is in place?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

No, I mean for the result of the audit.

[Valerie Gideon]

We are accountable.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

You have 10 employees and over $1 million in budget to look after a collection that's missing over 100 pieces. Some of them are recovered, yes, but there are some gaps here with a lot of zeros behind these numbers—millions of dollars.

Has anybody been held accountable for these failures?

[Valerie Gideon]

Could you specify what dollar value you're referring to that is millions of dollars?