Evidence of meeting #6 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
I love hearing it.
I want to get into the details of knowing that you can do it. What does it look like? In some cases, it must be drawing on dozens and dozens of artists. What would remuneration look like? Is it done through the ISRC?
What is the background of this that we can look at to get the ones and the zeros?
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
There's a lot to be talked about. I'll go back to the very basics, because when you're talking about the ISRC, you're talking about matching and distribution. We're at the licensing stage. I'm going to put forward that SOCAN has very successfully, on a blanket, been licensing all of the digital platforms in Canada, all of the bars and restaurants and the broadcasters. This is not new territory.
When somebody is at the table with you and you have a dance partner, you can say, “Great. This is a win-win. You need our works. We're very happy that you want to use them, and we want to also share in that benefit.” That's where the songwriters are. They're not trying to put the horses back in the barn. They know the works have been stolen. They're saying, “Okay, you stole it. I need my compensation.”
We believe that can happen easily. We represent all of the world's repertoire in Canada. That doesn't just mean the Canadian artists; it means every single songwriter whose work is performed in Canada. We would love to sit at the table with these people and have them know that there are no exceptions and they have to be there. Right now, they are spending their money on lawsuits. They are spending their money on insurance and lobbying. They could be spending their money on licensing and have a win-win when we sit at the table and figure out a licensing agreement.
What you're talking afterwards about is more of the distribution piece. We already have all of the works in there. We believe, as Patrick says, that if you're an AI company, you can put a list together of all the works you have used. We process that kind of data on a daily basis. I'm not worried about that.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
The key ingredient to all of that is the exclusive rights. It is our ability to say we are going to do this or not do it. We're going to sign up with you or not. The other alternative, which different elements of the cultural sector will put forward, is that we don't need to do that in music. The exclusive rights are what are important. We know that because we put a price on music every day.
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
Given the Copyright Act as it stands, which you don't want to change, what has kept you from pursuing a lawsuit at this point in Canada?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
It's a willing buyer and a willing seller. We are a willing seller. There is not a willing buyer. These companies refuse to come to the table to negotiate, and they are counting on you to change copyright in their favour. That's why they're not coming and negotiating. We don't have a situation where we have a willing buyer and willing seller.
Sample licences are starting around the world. We're watching that. We're talking about what we can do with what we have right now.
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
I'm sorry. I meant a lawsuit. Do you need two partners to have a lawsuit?
Patrick, in your case, representing the major labels that have had a bunch of stuff stolen, has there been any impetus to having a lawsuit against what's been stolen?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
Yes, in the United States, we are suing the largest generative makers right now. The largest generative makers are not currently in Canada,so we're not suing those players.
It's funny. I'm desperate for you to not ask me about headlines regarding licensing coming together, but if you were to look for headlines about licensing coming together, you would find them. I think that's very positive and hopeful news.
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
All I would say from our side is to stay tuned. We want the dance partner to come to the table. If they aren't going to come willingly, we will force the issue. We will be willing to take action on that.
Liberal
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
Oh, my goodness.
I have another question that I will continue, hopefully, in the next round regarding competition. Now we're seeing on streaming services that almost 30% of the art being uploaded is generated by generative AI. That obviously changes the market for Canadian artists.
Are there any thoughts on that?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
That's all part of current negotiations now too, and that needs to be dealt with.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Well said.
You finished right on time.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Rogers, I want to come back to your concern about the large technology companies negotiating an exception to the Copyright Act. Is this fear based on lobbying efforts? What exactly is the basis for this fear?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
Yes, right now.... Again, the global digital music industry is global, so there is jurisdiction shopping happening right now, where there's a hope, a desire, that different countries and different markets will take on a text and data mining exception. If that happens, it will put all of us at greater risk in all of the other countries that have not.
As I said off the top, I think Canada is making a great start in this, in the G7 statement, in saying that we wouldn't and that we would respect IP. That's where the fear comes from. It's something that we watch very closely. We're hopeful that Canada stands strong against it.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Do you have any information that would lead you to believe that such measures are currently being taken in Canada?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
I take a slightly different view of this. I believe in parliamentary democracy and people's ability to come and make these statements to you and to meet with you in your offices and do that. I wouldn't villainize it. That's why we have a Lobbying Act. That's why we can track all of these things.
I'm not worried about them doing it. I'm worried about you accepting it. I would encourage all of you to hear from us today and understand our concerns about that and, especially when it comes to a text and data mining exception, to take our arguments over theirs.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
I'm going to use the last few seconds of my time to talk about the challenge of getting data from the big tech companies, so you know what they're getting from you without paying you.
What processes and mechanisms are in place to help you do that?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
We do that in negotiations already. We ask for transparency.
What we've found internationally when ICMP has done the work when there have been leaked datasets is that often companies will say that they don't have the information on the traded data, but when the data was leaked it was lists of very specific YouTube links with categories, genres and artists' names attached—very well curated.
What the companies often say is that “this isn't available” or “we use a third party supplier for our data and we don't know what's in it”. When in actuality, when we are able to see that data, it is very clear exactly what's in there.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you.
I gave you a little more time, given the time required for interpretation.
Mrs. Thomas, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you very much.
Ms. Brown, I have a question for you. One of the things I read in a submission given to the government by SOCAN was a statement that “with proper safeguards and an appropriate copyright framework, artificial intelligence (AI) can support and enhance human creativity in the music industry.”
This phrase “proper safeguards” I find interesting, because I think different folks would define that differently. How would your organization define “proper safeguards” when it comes to AI?
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
What we're looking for is a win-win. We're looking for the opportunity for creators to use AI, ethical AI that is licensed, so that they know they have that partnership there and that the output they have from using AI will be licensed.
The safeguards there, too, are what we've been talking about: the transparency, the ability to know what has gone into your model and the labelling when it comes out, so that we know this is generative AI. I think those are very simple tools to start putting in place to allow a market to start thriving and to have a win-win, both for tech to thrive but also for the creators to use AI in a really positive way.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
You've used the phrases “licensing” and “ethical AI.” These are catchphrases, but there's no further explanation of what they mean and what that looks like.
When you talk about a licensing scheme with regard to AI, very practically, what does that look like?
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
Practically, we do not have a licence in place with any AI company. As I mentioned, no one has come to the table.
I will tell you that we have licences in place with every other tech provider that operates in Canada. We sit at the table with them and they get to use all of the repertoire. They don't have to ask specifically, “Can I have this piece?” They have access to the world's repertoire of music for a revenue share.
In most cases, that's the way it is. If you're a subscription model, then maybe it's a percentage of revenue. If you're a free service, then maybe it's a flat fee. These are things that two willing people across the table sit down and figure out: How is it that you're generating revenue? Let's respect the value of the creative work that's been put into that, and let's figure out what the right monetary licence really is.
A licence is not theoretical. We have plenty of licences. Most of them are—I say, with the tech agreements—negotiated agreements. These are willing partners sitting at the table, in a free market, negotiating.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
All right.
With whom are these AI companies entering into licence agreements?