Evidence of meeting #6 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Zoe Royer Liberal Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
It's really so interesting. I think three to four years ago, districts were really afraid of AI—how to manage ChatGPT, for example, and the cheating that might happen. Today I think the larger districts are really wanting to get out in front of this. It's really important.
What role can post-secondary institutions like OCAD and local colleges in my riding play in preparing the next generation of creators for this AI-driven world?
Head, Cultural Policy Hub, OCAD University
I can speak a little bit to the OCAD experience. The students at OCAD work in a variety of different disciplines. They work in textiles, sculpture and new media. They also work in foresight and in thinking about design futures. What does the world we want to live in look like? How can we design that to be a place where we want to live?
For those students, they've grown up obviously way past digital natives, in that sense. Technology is ubiquitous in their lives. They know what they value, coming into their education. I think an important conversation needs to be had in the post-secs: How do you, as a creator in particular, want to be able to control your work, control your future and also contribute to the conversation that you're in as a creator? I think at OCAD there is a really smart way of talking about media literacy and the ability to market your work and understand the market you're working in.
In non-artistic post-secondary, obviously, the concerns around cheating and the policies around AI use are still developing in this country and elsewhere. I think the teachers, professors and that side of the education equation need support to be able to teach in this world. That is also, I think, at this point missing a little bit from their post-secondary education. That's a place to look as well.
Liberal
Zoe Royer Liberal Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you very much.
Patrick, you mentioned copyright law number one. Number two was really around harmful deepfakes and the legislation around that. Given that legislation can take time, what would be some immediate guardrails that you would like to see put in place while the legislation catches up?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
I thank you for the question. This is something we think about a lot.
I'll share a couple of points on this. One, we've been sort of working away on the concept of deepfakes since the dropping of the fake Drake track. That made it clear at the time that, one, everything was already stolen. There was no point preparing for it to be stolen—it was stolen.
Two, bring me the person who disagrees with clamping down on deepfakes. We have yet to meet them. I do encourage the government and opposition parties to really get serious about this. If I walked into your office and impersonated you, that is already a crime. It should be a crime online the same way it is in person.
What can you do tomorrow? Again, drawing back to a previous digital revolution, the ads that appeared before Blockbuster movies that said you shouldn't steal this film were from the Motion Picture Association. It was from industry. This time around, we should have government stand up on it: This is illegal. You can't do this. You shouldn't do it. We're working on the law.
You could do that today.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you, Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Waugh, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Rogers, you gave two interesting examples of where you're excited about AI. Brenda Lee had vocal damage over 50 years ago. You talked about Universal Music using AI and bringing her back to life. Boy, is she making a lot of money here—$5.9 million from over 1.47 billion streams of Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, and then $2.7 million in master recording revenue for Lee and her label, which of course is Universal Music Group.
I can see why you're excited for Brenda Lee, but you were just saying that if I impersonated somebody in a room, I would be discouraged from doing this. However, when I look at Brenda Lee, who hasn't sung for 50-some years, you've actually impersonated her and made big money off of her.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
I thank the member for the question and the opportunity to clear this up. Universal Music Group and Brenda Lee worked on that project together.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
It's a fascinating story. The song was huge in Latin America before the translation. Universal used technology to do that in concert with her. This is, as I say, an example of AI at its best. Where it's the worst is when someone uses that technology to steal your voice against your will and to have you say things you would never say.
We can have both. We can have a world in which artists and everyday people consent to it, where an ALS patient who loses their voice consents—
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
The other one is Randy Travis, of course, who unfortunately had that stroke in 2013, and now you're bringing him back to life.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
Well, we're giving him—who is alive—the opportunity to finish songs that were otherwise unrecorded. Again, they're his rights, his work, his choices.
When you hear Johnny Cash sing Barbie Girl, which is one of the most famous deepfakes, that makes us laugh because of how ridiculous that is. However, neither Johnny Cash's estate nor Aqua were involved in that. That would be one where we would draw the line.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
I'm happy you brought up Johnny Cash because, in my province, Colter Wall has been considered the new Johnny Cash.
What are your thoughts, Margaret? You're nodding your head.
Mr. Wall has decided to temper his performances. He does very few in North America, as you know. Everyone said that he sounds like Johnny Cash, but that's his own voice. Now he's changed his voice a little, on purpose, and everyone's wondering what's going on with Colter Wall's voice. What are your thoughts on that?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
I don't really have the backstory on that, but I was listening to his music just before the Canadian Country Music Association Awards, so that's why I was nodding.
I don't really have the backstory on that, but I was listening to his music just before the Canadian Country Music Association Awards, so that's why I was nodding.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
They've been comparing him to Johnny Cash. Is that fair? Someone could say, “Oh, you're stealing Johnny Cash”.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
Can I jump back in?
What you're giving is a different version of the “AI is a big, giant brain that listens to everything and is producing something different.”
Two years ago, I was really worried about that argument. I worried that it made them Star Trek and us The Flintstones. In the litigation in the United States, with Suno and Udio, they have admitted in the litigation that it's not a big, giant brain; they're just stealing it, and they're rearranging the ones and zeros.
That's the difference between a human sounding like another human and the tech companies using ones and zeros to steal that voice.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
I think that when you come from Maple Creek, Saskatchewan, and when you fight uphill as he has.... Right now, Colter Wall is pretty big, and probably AI has helped him. A bit of digital has really helped him because when you come from rural Canada, you're fighting uphill.
Five or six years ago I mentioned his name to several Canadian music producers. They said, “Who cares about him?” Now they're at his doorstep trying to get him to sign record labels and everything else.
That's the problem we have: AI exposes you in this country, and then all of a sudden, you guys catch up several years later.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
I think we want to be clear. Our companies are embracing AI. My medium-sized companies own thousands of songs, and when a music supervisor comes to them and says, “Which one fits this brief? We need a happy blues song for this ad”, it can take them hours to go through their catalogues and listen again.
With AI, you can now drag and drop a YouTube video, find the ones in your catalogue—the three that you should pitch—and within five minutes, you're getting that pitch back to that music supervisor in L.A. and getting money to your songwriter in Saskatchewan. That's the beauty of AI.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you.
As someone with family in Maple Creek, Saskatchewan, I appreciated the reference.
David Waugh, you have the floor now for five minutes.
Liberal
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
We're a match made in heaven, Kevin. That's good.
I'm so pleased to be here. I'm so pleased to be having this conversation. Thank you all. I've been waiting patiently over here to be part of this.
I don't even know where to direct my question because we've been doing a lot of great work and having a lot of great conversations, but I think we want to touch on what regulations are going to look like. You can tell—I'm looking at myself—by my hair that I've really been thinking a lot.
I want to talk about regulations. We talked about it being possible, and I'm with you, Patrick. My concern was that this is a big brain that's already ingested all the songs of the world. The Beatles are all ingested, so at this point, it would just be creating based on what it has ingested.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
Speaking of that, there are new models every day. ChatGPT is refreshed on a regular basis. We are in the business of licensing. Often, there is litigation that forces people to come to the table, and we retroactively license. This is not lost.
Do not change the Copyright Act with a text and data mining exception. Let us do our jobs and license this so SOCAN can pay you royalties.