Evidence of meeting #7 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was media.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Zoe Royer Liberal Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you. I really appreciate your response.
CBC/Radio-Canada's 2025-30 strategy defines it as a national public service media organization that belongs to the public and creates public value by fostering democratic life and cultural cohesion. How do you measure that public value today, especially in an era when trust in institutions and media is declining?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
We measure public value, first of all, by many dimensions.
The first one is use. How many Canadians use us and for what amount of time during their week or their month? That can be measured across platforms: time spent and reach. That's a value to Canadians.
We also measure how they perceive our service in terms of fairness and balance, but also reflection of their community, information about their concerns and reflection of the diversity of the country.
We measure our impact economically. We are an important trigger for expenditures in the creative sector. We have a wide span in that way, and that creates value for Canadians.
We also want to measure the value for our employees. This is a large organization, and we look at various KPIs that value the experience of being an employee of CBC.
Liberal
Zoe Royer Liberal Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Can you very quickly describe an example where CBC's independence has been tested and upheld?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
Oh my god, that's my day-to-day life.
First of all, there's the independence of the newsrooms. Our structure is such that we do protect the call- and decision-making capacity of our heads of news. They are at a distance from other considerations or from senior management.
We also have independent ombudsmen who can look at complaints from the public about the application or use of our journalistic standards and practices. They are completely independent from the newsrooms, and they can give advice and render decisions on whether or not the JSPs, the journalist practices, were respected in a particular case. That's another sign of independence and of value to Canadians, because we are creating a framework where they do have a recourse and they can be heard.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you.
Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Bouchard, your strategic plan covers a period of five years, from 2025 to 2030. Technology has moved so fast over the last few years it makes your head spin.
Does your planning take into account the possibility that traditional television might totally disappear from our media landscape by 2030?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
Traditional television, so using linear antennae, is still popular, especially in the francophone market. In fact, this market is still quite vibrant, even among groups consisting of younger viewers.
Linear television viewing has decreased further among younger audiences, but the format is still more popular than it is in the anglophone market. As long as people use this traditional media, I don't think we should stop providing the service. Some generations will continue to value traditional, linear forms of media.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
You realize that CBC/Radio-Canada might be the last of the Mohicans, so to speak, when it comes to linear broadcasting and the availability of programs on traditional television?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
It's all about market dynamics. The format is still popular with francophones, because we are among a number of players providing the service.
We're also very worried about our colleagues' future. They're having a hard time. It is public knowledge that advertising revenues have gone down. The resulting context makes it hard to maintain such a strong viewership. That said, this linear viewing format is important, because it helped francophones stay in touch with their culture and French content.
In contrast, when your audience is scattered across the digital space, you lose part of your global audience. Our industry must therefore protect this critical mass, regardless of the technological format we choose.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
That's reassuring.
You also talked earlier of possible co-operation between CBC/Radio-Canada and regional broadcasters to ensure high-quality media and journalistic coverage in the regions.
Have you explored the idea further? Have you talked to potential partners?
Are private regional broadcasters interested or open to the idea?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
I've met with many of my colleagues in the francophone private and community media sectors, as well as representatives from the anglophone media sector, specifically here and in northern Canada.
I always start by asking them how things are going, and to tell me what's working and what they need.
Then, we focus on what we could do in our operations to support what's going well and look at what can be done in the future to foster this support. It might be reducing constraining costs. I'll give you an example. During an election, polling costs could be shared among different media outlets to reduce costs for everyone. It could also be sharing images from an event for free.
We try to determine what we can do to help them reduce their costs, so they can invest in a specific type of coverage that sets them apart.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome again, Madame Bouchard.
I looked at your five-year plan for CBC. Right at the top, you talk about accountability and transparency. Those two should be on the top for any organization, yet to date, you've refused to provide any accountability to Canadians by sharing the numbers of CBC Gem. That's an issue.
We talked about it here with your predecessor, Ms. Tait. She said that it was going well and that there were two million on-and-off viewers, yet the subscribers vary. There's the Olympics, so they come on and watch the winter Olympics, and then they leave.
Why aren't you disclosing those numbers for CBC Gem? Your competitor may be Crave from Bell Media, and they're trumpeting four million. Why would you not disclose the CBC Gem numbers to the public, if you're all about accountability and transparency?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
The way people subscribe to platforms such as Gem or Crave is evolving quickly. It used to be that everybody was behind a paywall, and CBC was offering a hybrid model with both TOU.TV and Gem. First of all, Gem was completely free, and then we added on a tier of subscriber features, which were essentially about being able to watch without advertising and having access to CBC News Network. These are considerations that are at play in the negotiations that we have with distributors, with bundling. These are issues that are discussed under confidentiality when we are negotiating.
The fact of the matter is that the CRTC, which is the body that governs all of the telecommunication and the platforms, considers this type of information specifically and treats it as confidential.
We have a situation where we have the Information Commissioner, who came to a conclusion, and we have the CRTC, which considers that to be confidential. We really have a conflict of interpretation.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
Why are you hiding it? Are you embarrassed about the numbers of CBC Gem?
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
Why don't you come out and just say, “Here are the numbers we have”?
You started CBC Gem in 2019. Now you have a five-year mandate that you released last week. Give us some numbers.
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
Well, I can give you a number of 5.3 million. That's the number of people who have created an account. That's not necessarily—
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
No, not necessarily. The number of people who are paying is a number we keep confidential for competitive reasons.
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
It is validated by the CRTC.
We're asking the court to simply reconcile these two interpretations that are contradictory. That's what we're doing.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
How much money have you put into Gem in the last five years? Do you know that number?
President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
I don't have that number.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK
Could you bring that number forward?
We had Ms. Tait here glowingly talking about Gem and about how it's doing. We'd like to know how much money you've put into Gem. You have a five-year commitment here that you released last week. You want more children, more newcomers and more youth. You want to get non-users involved, and you want dissatisfied users to come on board.
How are you going to do that when you're not really accountable and transparent with your numbers?