Evidence of meeting #29 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A video is available from Parliament.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
Not at all. I appreciate the honest question.
I think we tried to provide a proposed path early on in the testimony, respecting the fact—maybe just to differentiate from the business—that we are not necessarily here to be your advisers. We are here to answer questions. Ultimately, you have a team who provide you with advice.
If you were asking me for my proposed approach going forward, it would be for us to provide you with the index and file names, as I mentioned. I think there's a decision that needs to be made at that point: Does that need to be translated, or are the generic names of emails enough for the clerk of the committee or others to start to go through it? I think that's the first point.
Then, based on that, translated or not, the next piece would be for you to highlight the types of emails you would like or, for example—we can say where evidence originated from—that you're most interested in information from a certain province or from a certain organization. If you help us narrow it down, we could then go from 152,000 documents to 5,000 documents, let's say. Then we could work with our partners on expediting that translation, our reviews and that sort of thing.
That is very much what I would like to do and what I am trying to propose in the most appropriate way possible, understanding that we are witnesses here and that it is ultimately your decision what you will ask for. We very much want to find a solution, because I don't think any of us think the right solution is to spend years and years and not provide this in a timely manner. We want to provide you with everything you need to do the work in a timely manner, and in a translated fashion.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
I would hope—I saw it in the motion that invited us—that there is some discussion of, within five days, a prioritization or a list of documents. We would like to work with whomever you ask us to work with. We're happy to work with the clerk of the committee directly to actually walk through what we have and make some determinations as to what would be appropriate in terms of how consensus will be reached by the committee behind the scenes in terms of what you would like from us. We would be very pleased to dedicate our time to do that as fast as we can.
Senator, Quebec (Saurel), CSG
What is the role of the translation bureau in that?
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
The role of the translation bureau would be to then translate that. They would give us a quote. I think we would want to come back and make sure that everyone, with open eyes, knows what it would cost, what we think the translation would cost. Ultimately, if we were told that that's what you want, we would try to start working on that.
Senator, Quebec (Saurel), CSG
It would be an interesting partnership if you could work together. Everyone seems to be taking their spot. Good luck with it.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you, Senator.
We will now move to our second round.
Mr. Brock and Mrs. Romanado have four minutes each. Mr. Fortin, Mr. Green, Senator Harder and Senator Carignan have three minutes each.
We'll start with Mr. Brock for four minutes.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for their attendance.
I have a brief observation and one question, and then I'm going to cede my time to Senator Carignan.
My observation is to refresh my colleague Yasir Naqvi's commentary with regard to how he's proud of a government that believes in bilingualism. Well, I think, quite frankly, that all 338 parliamentarians believe in that. However, I'll refresh his memory. Thanks to Sir John A. Macdonald and Sir George-Étienne Cartier, the British North America Act allowed bilingualism in Parliament. The translation bureau was the creation of R.B. Bennett's government, and simultaneous interpretation was introduced in Parliament by John Diefenbaker's government. The right to simultaneous interpretation in Parliament was enshrined in the Official Languages Act by Brian Mulroney's government. I'm very thankful for previous Conservative governments that really enshrined bilingualism in this country. That's my observation.
My question is for the PCO.
Thirty-one thousand documents from Justin Trudeau's government were before the Rouleau commission. How many of that 31,000 never saw the light of day?
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
I'm not sure what documents are on the website. I would have to see. I think we would have to agree on a definition of “never saw the light of day”. They were provided to the commission of inquiry, which reviewed them and had unprecedented access to cabinet confidences and top secret documents to do its work. Ultimately, they encapsulated their conclusions from reading those documents in that 2,000-page report that is on the website.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
The only glaring exception to that was the legal opinion that the Trudeau government relied upon to invoke the Emergencies Act. In fact, it was Justice Rouleau who essentially questioned former Attorney General David Lametti and essentially said, “What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to just take your word for it?” David Lametti's response was yes, despite the fact that there was an order of this committee to release that very document.
That being said, I'm going to pass my time over to Senator Carignan.
Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
It seems that cabinet minutes were given to the Rouleau commission in English only. You put them on the translation list.
When I sat on a cabinet committee, the documents were in French and English. Has the Trudeau government changed this practice and is operating solely in English?
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
Senator, perhaps you can clarify where you're seeing that the documents were provided in English only and not in both official languages.
Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
These are the documents that were provided to the Rouleau commission in English only.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
I would have to verify that. All cabinet documents are translated. Absolutely, cabinet documents themselves would be translated in both official languages.
Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
So it would be easy to have them in French.
The note that was given to the Prime Minister for his decision-making is in English only.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
I would have to verify, but I believe it was in English, yes. That is not the same as a memorandum to cabinet, which is required to be translated in both official languages. Individual memos can be sent up in French or English. In my experience, there's a mix of the two, depending on the topic and depending on the originator.
Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
Can you commit to sending us the French version of the cabinet minutes that were sent to the Rouleau commission?
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Ministerial Services and Corporate Affairs, Privy Council Office
It would have been sent in the language it was available in. If it was a cabinet document that was translated, it would have been available in both official languages. If it was a memo that was created in English, it would have been sent as an English document. If it was a memo that was created in French, it would have been sent as a French document.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Senator Carignan, your time is up. We'll come back to you at the bottom of the list.
Mrs. Romanado.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
It is a real pleasure for me to be with you this evening.
I also want to sincerely thank the interpreters who are interpreting this evening's meeting and are doing an amazing job.
I am also a member of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, where we conducted a study, I believe a year ago, on the possibility of permanently establishing hybrid proceedings in Parliament and on the potential impact on translation and interpretation services. At that time, we heard very clearly that there was a shortage of staff in translation and interpretation services.
Mr. Lymburner, if we add a request like the one we're talking about here, will it be possible to continue the business of the House and the Senate between now and June, given the motion calling for the House to sit until midnight every night until the end of June and the fact that many committees are extending their sitting hours? That's not counting all the reports that have to be translated. So it will be chaos at the end of the session.
Do you have the capacity to respond to all those requests? Have you planned for them?
I wouldn't want all the business of the House and the Senate to stop.
Chief Executive Officer, Translation Bureau
Thank you for the question.
Language services in Canada are in high demand. We've talked today about the advent of artificial intelligence and what we can do to attract young people to the school programs in this sector. The Translation Bureau plays a key role in the language world in Canada, along with universities. Currently, only two universities in Canada train interpreters, and we work with them. In addition, Mr. Ball's team is working day and night. As mentioned, your documents are translated overnight. Indeed, we are in extremely high demand.
In a previous answer, I mentioned that the number of words translated by the bureau had increased from 40 million in 2020 to 55 million today. I know we're providing a lot of numbers today, but our language consists of words and pages. That's why we use those terms, in addition to dollars, obviously.
As for public servants, as is the case everywhere else in Canadian society, wages are rising. So there is also financial pressure on us.
That said, the estimate we provided—10 months to translate 124,000 pages—took into account our business volume. As my colleague mentioned, if we just did the work you're asking us to do, it would take less time, but we can't do that. So we are considering all options to increase our translation capacity.
The key message here is that, over the past four or five years, although the use of artificial intelligence has helped us, demand has increased and there has been document proliferation. At the Translation Bureau, succession definitely poses challenges, as does our funding and our business model. As I mentioned earlier, our services are optional. Some departments are also under financial pressure and are looking for less expensive options. At the Translation Bureau, we are currently operating at full capacity across our business lines.
February 27th, 2024 / 7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
That doesn’t even include the incidents leading to injuries among the interpreters.
To conclude, I just want to say that, personally, I don’t agree with having documents in only one official language. I am referring here to what Mr. Shea said. If documents are provided to us, they must be in both official languages.