Declaration of Emergency Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Jean-François Lymburner]

That's a very good point. From a commission standpoint, it's exactly what my colleague from PCO is saying, but I can also report that since 2020 we've seen a significant increase in the number of words being asked to be translated from Parliament. Since 2020, there has been about a 30% increase. There is other work in committees that is also coming out with large requests as we speak, and we're supporting all of these.

It depends. In this case, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, it's like the translation bureau is operating in two business models. For Parliament, we're offering services to committees. When it comes down to departments, we are working independently with departments, depending on where the documents are coming from. However, by and large, there is a significant increase, almost by 30% since 2020.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

If we look at the two options before us, one is the track that we're on, which is to have all documents translated, and the other is what has been suggested by Mr. Shea from PCO. For either one of them, can you share with us what kind of impact that would have on your existing workload in terms of supporting Parliament and its committees and in terms of additional work and requirements for staff or personnel?

[Jean-François Lymburner]

From a translation bureau perspective, I believe that we provided our quotes. As Mr. Shea said, the index was mentioned several times in the committee, but in fact it was 124,000 documents, and we provided a quote of 10 months.

The only thing I would like to add, Madam Chair, is that we can provide documents as we translate them, so if there is a prioritization, that's something we can work with as well.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Mr. Fortin.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin (Rivière-du-Nord, BQ)), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Freeland, Mr. Shea, Mr. Lymburner, Mr. Ball and Ms. Plouffe, thank you for being with us this evening.

As you can well imagine, even though we are only hearing from you today, we have had a lot of questions and things going through our minds following your letters over the past few months.

Mr. Shea, it's a bit difficult for me to understand you saying that this is the first time a situation like this has occurred. Am I to understand that, normally, in commissions, people operate without translation? Are the documents provided used without being translated?

[Matthew Shea]

To give you some details, I would say that there are several types of documents. Documents intended for the public must all be translated. However, the same standard doesn't apply to internal documents.

Using a department as an example, under the order in council, the final report had to be translated. The public—

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I'm just talking about the evidence.

Commissioner Rouleau hears evidence. I'm sure he speaks English and French well. That may also be the case for the staff around him, but not necessarily. It seems to me that when these people write their documents, they must be able to fully understand all the evidence that was presented before them.

Were you not at some point asked if documents could be translated? Actually, the question is more for the people from the Translation Bureau. Aren't requests sometimes made to translation services in cases where, for example, the commission has just heard from a witness who produced a document in French and it needs an English version, or vice versa?

Can you answer that question, Mr. Lymburner?

[Jean-François Lymburner]

To answer the question, I would say that we have received requests to do translation for the Rouleau commission, but also to provide interpretation. So we provide a number of services to the commission.

The commission also relies on certain services in the private sector for some of its documentation. We were involved in the translation of the decision, as well.

This type of commission will mainly use the Translation Bureau for its specialized services or when it is secure.

That said, we have not translated all the documents from the Rouleau commission, despite the fact that we have offered the commission a number of services.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

So you have translated some documents.

Can you tell me approximately how many documents have been translated?

[Jean-François Lymburner]

I could ask Ms. Plouffe to answer that question.

[Annie Plouffe, Acting Vice-President, Policy and Corporate Services, Translation Bureau]

Thank you for the question.

Concerning the number of documents we have translated, I would say that we have translated certain chapters of the Rouleau report.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

We know that the decision is in both languages, so we won't talk about it. I would like to talk about the evidence that was presented.

What part of the evidence have you translated, Ms. Plouffe? Can you give us an idea?

[Annie Plouffe]

To my knowledge and based on the information we have found, we have not translated any evidence for the commission to date.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

You also have not translated any testimony. Obviously, simultaneous interpretation was provided when people were testifying. However, you did not have to translate transcripts, if I understand correctly.

[Annie Plouffe]

That's correct.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

So we assume that the people at the Rouleau commission based their work on the documents and testimony in the language in which they were provided, without there being any translation into the other language, whether it be English or French.

[Annie Plouffe]

We cannot assume that to be the case, since, as Mr. Lymburner mentioned, the commission did business with private sector companies. So the bureau is not in a position to say to what extent the commission people based their work on the translations.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Can any of the five of you tell us which private company the Rouleau commission dealt with for translation?

[Jean-François Lymburner]

I don't have that information.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

What about you, Mr. Shea?

[Matthew Shea]

I would have to verify whether they used any private translation. I'm not aware that they did. They may have used some private translation for parts of the final report, just due to the time crunch.

I would just reiterate that their obligations under the Official Languages Act are for the external documents: the documents they put on their website and the documents they released to the public. Of course, the hearings, just like today, had to have interpretation and we had to have translation of the documents.

Internal documents, just as with the Government of Canada, can be in either official language. It is worth noting, given that we haven't looked through every single email, that we are assuming the translation is from English to French. The reality is that there will also be some translation from French to English, as you point out.

[The Joint Chair (Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin), Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Mr.—

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

I'm sorry. The time is up, Mr. Fortin.

You have five minutes, Mr. Green.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Time goes by fast.

I have to say, in all my time, I haven't had the pleasure of having Mr. Lymburner or folks from interpretation and translation here.

I just want to say, right off the top, that in all my time in Parliament, your interpretation services, translation services and the things that help us stay bilingual are world-class. I've travelled around and gone to conferences where they had that, but certainly our interpretive services are world-class. I just wanted to say that off the top.

I'm trying to get a better understanding, though, just in terms of the scope. If I could perhaps make one admission of guilt in the committee, it's that I wish we had perhaps consulted with you prior to voting on the motion that ultimately would have sent this volume of documents for translation. I think, in fairness to us at the time, we weren't even sure ourselves just how much we were dealing with. We made the best decision with the information we had.

With that being said, Mr. Lymburner, in terms of the scope of work, could you just give us, and the public watching, a bit of an understanding of roughly how many staff members you would have working in translation services?