Declaration of Emergency Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Sir, what I am going to put to you is that this committee has a responsibility.

We've heard Mr. Virani, and many other people, come before this committee and talk about solicitor-client privilege. We had that conversation today at the ethics committee. We heard Mr. Virani say here that it was sacrosanct. I would put to you that the powers of Parliament supersede that in our ability to send for documents and get information.

If it's your position that you're not willing to testify on a very basic answer tonight, are you then prepared to come back to this committee in two weeks, and are you then prepared to be a part of a process that prolongs this committee, rather than just answer a very straightforward question, sir?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You've asked about four or five questions that you say are straightforward questions, and—

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

It's one question. Let's not dance around it. The question—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You said that I wasn't prepared to testify about that tonight. What I said is that I wasn't prepared to talk about the government's detailed response to the Rouleau commission report until we talk about it publicly next week.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

That's not what I asked. What I asked was whether that specific parameter will be included.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The government will respond to every one of Justice Rouleau's thoughtful recommendations.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Mr. Virani, is it your contention that cabinet confidence is supreme and superior to Parliament's privileges here as accorded through long jurisprudence within the House of Commons?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'm glad you raised cabinet confidence, because I think it's important to understand—because both you and Monsieur Fortin have raised this—that the functioning of a Parliament in our system of parliamentary democracy, as it's been inherited from the Westminster model, includes cabinet confidence. We're not just talking about solicitor-client privilege materials. We're talking about cabinet confidence, which exists to promote open and candid discussions around the cabinet table in the public interest that will be fearlessly advanced at that table and then defended publicly after that.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Mr. Virani, as you would have heard in my previous testimony.... We've had these discussions. You're a very learned lawyer; you're the Attorney General now.

Despite that assertion outside and within the courts, would you not agree that the Constitution states that Parliament has the power to send for people, documents and information, which would supersede this notion of everything being protected by solicitor-client privilege?

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Mr. Green, your time is up.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

There are 10 seconds left, are there not?

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Not according to my watch.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

I am next.

Mr. Green, will you take the chair?

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Happily.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Mr. Virani, I would ask you to take the opportunity to answer his question.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I agree that Parliament has the power to make the request. I do not agree that it supersedes, necessarily, cabinet confidence. Cabinet confidence is waived very rarely.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Thank you.

I'd like to go back to Minister LeBlanc's report that we may see next week around the recommendations.

You can respond to this, or perhaps the commissioner can.

What emphasis...or what may we see around the role of layers of policing, particularly around this city, where residents raised major concerns about the delivery of police services?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Senator, thank you for raising that. Maybe the commissioner will want to add something.

That was absolutely one of the takeaways of the Rouleau commission: the confusion that existed in terms of who had jurisdictional responsibility on Wellington Street, the Parliamentary Protective Service, etc. All of you probably know this better than I do. When I read the Rouleau commission report, his focus on the clarity between the different police departments of jurisdiction and the role of the RCMP, the Ottawa Police Service, and the Ontario Police Services Act.... It is a discussion I remember having with Premier Ford.

We will have something very specific to say about that next week, and we think it will be a rather full answer to that challenge that Commissioner Rouleau identified. We've worked on that for the last year.

Maybe Commissioner Duheme wants to add something on that specific issue as well.

[Commissioner Michael Duheme, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I can just add, Madam Chair, that since then we've seen a difference in the requesting of resources.

I think there is a historical part here that needs to be understood as well. When the RCMP was responsible for the Hill, we worked jointly with the Ottawa Police Service because most of the demonstrations would start on the street and end on the Hill. When the PPS took over, the RCMP was no longer present, but that reflex of calling the RCMP for assistance was still there.

Now I'm happy to say that the first call for assistance, for additional resources, for the Ottawa Police Service goes to the OPP. Then, if for some reason Commissioner Carrique cannot supply the resources, they'll come to the RCMP.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Would it be fair for me to assume that the heads of the police agencies that were involved—Ottawa, the OPP and the RCMP—did a debrief of the situation?

You know, I have some understanding of the issue. Despite the provincial concerns that were expressed, there did not seem to be much communication—I'm not talking about communication between police services, but between governments—on actual decision-making throughout the event. I think we heard evidence here. We attempted to have representation from the province here. They refused to come.

I'm curious. If I were an Ottawa resident sitting here next week, could I expect that the reply that will be given out will include and erase my concern about what we saw take place?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Are you talking about a law enforcement perspective? You also mentioned governments not talking to each other.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

That depends on how far you think they're separated, but yes.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

From a law enforcement perspective, we are in a different place than we were when the convoy happened. We've seen it through different events that took place in Ottawa.

From a government perspective, I'll let Minister LeBlanc respond.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That was very careful dodging, Mike. That was well done.

Senator, again, I think one of the thoughtful findings of the Rouleau commission.... His phrase, which was often repeated, was “a failure of federalism”, whether that was in the report or in comments he made around the release of the report. We certainly took note of that and recognized that the residents in Ottawa, during those weeks, would not have understood why, between the municipal order of government, the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada, there wasn't a more direct way to sort out that exact contradiction or confusion that I think you properly identified in your question.

I know that, during those weeks, my colleagues.... The then public safety minister was talking to his Ontario counterpart, the Solicitor General. The transport ministers were speaking, and I was talking to Premier Ford as the intergovernmental affairs minister at the time. However, we think there needs to be a more structured way in those exact circumstances to remove the hesitation over whether it's one order of government or another. The citizens wanted that situation resolved peacefully and quickly, and it took way too long to do that.

Next week, I think we're going to have something to say about the structures. The commissioner referred to the law enforcement. Obviously, he can speak about those structures, but we recognize that the whole of government needs to recognize its relationship with partners.