Evidence of meeting #6 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
In that outreach after the invocation of the Emergencies Act, did they offer any views with respect to how the financial aspects of the emergency declaration could be better tailored to enforcement action?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I don't recall any such discussions. I may turn to my colleague, Julien Brazeau, just to ensure that we give you a complete answer.
Julien Brazeau Director General, Financial Crimes and Security Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I don't recall any such comments that were made by the FIs themselves.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Thank you.
To Barry MacKillop, it's clear, if I interpret your testimony correctly, that the crowdfunding organizations and payment service providers were not part of your mandate before the events on the Hill, and they were added to your mandate at that time. Was that a gap, in your view, and should that continue?
Deputy Director, Intelligence, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada
It was a gap in the sense that they are not covered as a reporting entity. I think the jury is still out. It's new. I think that once they do, if it does become permanent—and it was announced that it would become permanent—we will learn as we go on in terms of what type of reporting we're going to see. I don't know the extent of reporting that we would see from them, so I think it's something that we will learn together as we move forward.
Certainly, I do believe that having them subject to the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act would, at the very least, act as a deterrent for anyone who might want to use a crowdfunding platform to advance nefarious activities. So I believe it will have at least that effect.
Because our threshold of reporting is $10,000 or more in or out of Canada, we would not see the transactions within Canada unless they were suspicious. So I'm not sure what type of reporting we'll get, but I think the jury is out, and we look forward to it. I think any way that we can attempt to reduce the opportunities for people to use these in a nefarious way is beneficial.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Thank you very much.
We will now conclude the first round with Senator White.
Senator White, the floor is yours.
Vernon White Senator, Ontario, C
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Assistant Deputy Minister Jacques.
If I may, you spoke to information provided to the financial institutions that would allow those institutions to not permit the accounts or the financial assets to be accessible by certain individuals. Was that list produced solely by the RCMP, or was it produced also with assistance from your office?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
It was only by the RCMP.
Senator, Ontario, C
Thank you.
You also stated that the information would come back from those financial institutions at the end of each day and that there would be an assessment done. I don't understand exactly what that assessment was. Are you referring to an assessment by the RCMP as to whether or not it was an account they wanted to be kept inaccessible?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
No, I think that, as you saw in the order, the financial institution had to report back to the RCMP directly. What we received on a daily basis was simply the aggregate amount of accounts frozen. It was just the amount and the number of financial products. We did not know who.... We didn't have any names. In my opening remarks, I explained that there were, to our knowledge, as explained to us, 280 different products that were frozen.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
We're referring to accounts, yes. It's possible that one person has three or four different types of accounts.
Senator, Ontario, C
Thank you very much.
We had 280 accounts that we provided to the banks for 280 or fewer individuals or organizations. The banks made a decision whether or not to allow them to be accessible. They would then report back each day on how many they had frozen, because it's easier. There was no correlation between those names and what was frozen by the institution. Is that correct?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
It's slightly different. The RCMP would provide names to the financial institutions. They would do their internal review and also, on an ongoing basis, looked at their accounts. Based on either the information provided by the RCMP, which I understand was largely the source of information, or their own internal review, they froze accounts.
Senator, Ontario, C
To be clear, was there any point in time when the RCMP would state that they didn't need to be frozen and would actually release those accounts?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
No, but I know at one point in time, certainly as of February 21, you saw that accounts started to become unfrozen, so I presume that there was information provided by the RCMP to the financial institution potentially—and I don't know this—saying that a certain individual was no longer participating in illegal activities. There's something that led to the accounts being unfrozen, but I don't know the exact nature of that information, because I wasn't privy to it.
Senator, Ontario, C
If I may, do you know if any criminal charges have been laid in relation to those accounts or the funding that was in those accounts?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I have no knowledge to that effect, no.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
No, they would not.
Senator, Ontario, C
Mr. MacKillop, sorry I missed you. Do you know if any charges have been laid in relation to any of the information you provided to the RCMP?
Deputy Director, Intelligence, Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada
I do not, sir.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Thank you very much.
We are now into our second round, which will be four-minute rounds from the government side and the opposition side, followed by three-minute rounds—
Sorry, is there a question?
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I am just wondering, since we only have this panel and we have three hours, could we just continue with five-minute rounds? Is that amenable to the members of the committee?