Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Isabelle Jacques]

Yes, I'm talking about an authorization.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Since our committee has to investigate the application of these measures, I imagine it goes without saying that we'll have to know what measures were taken.

I'd like to know the names of the people whose bank accounts were seized or frozen, the amounts that were frozen, the dates on which they were frozen, the dates on which they were unfrozen and, especially, the reasons why the accounts of those persons were frozen. I imagine I'll get that information on…

[Isabelle Jacques]

I'd like to make it clear that what we got was aggregate information. We got no names or information on account types. We only received the number of financial products and the amounts, but we got no details on the names of individuals. None of that information was forwarded to us.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you very much.

At this point, I'm going to pass the chair virtually over to Senator Boniface. If you could please set a five-minute timer, I'll proceed with my questions.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)]

Let's turn to Mr. Green. You have five minutes, sir.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Senator.

I'm going to begin with my questions for FINTRAC. We heard some interesting testimony early on that provides a bit of contradiction to previous testimonies of other witnesses.

I'd like to begin by asking if you observed any red flags prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act on the financial transactions occurring around the occupation and the blockades.

[Barry MacKillop]

We receive reporting on a regular basis from a number of reporting entities related to suspicions of money laundering and/or terrorist financing. We did over 2,000 disclosures last year.

On a daily basis, we disclose to law enforcement and our national security partners on individuals or entities that may be linked through their transactions to potential money laundering or terrorist financing. We would have disclosed on individuals in that case. We do that on a daily basis. That is our mandate and that is what we continued to do before, during and after the emergency measures act.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

For the witnesses, you will hear me say “thank you” from time to time, so that I can reclaim my time and continue with the questioning.

To be clear, of the 280 frozen accounts, how many of them did you flag as having suspicious financial activity prior to the invocation of the act?

[Barry MacKillop]

It is not within our mandate, sir, to flag those to anybody. In terms of flagging them to the financial institutions, that is not within our mandate. Those accounts—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Who would you be reporting this to? Ostensibly, you would be receiving these reports, as you've testified. You'd get the information. To whom would it go?

[Barry MacKillop]

If I had received a suspicious transaction report and it met my threshold to suspect that it would be relevant to a money laundering or terrorist financing investigation, I would disclose it to local law enforcement or the RCMP.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

My question, through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. MacKillop is which instances he flagged prior to the invocation of the act that would have been deemed suspicious. To whom did you report? Was it the RCMP, local police or the provincial intelligence task force?

Answer with specificity, please, sir.

[Barry MacKillop]

We would have simply fulfilled our mandate, Madam Chair, in disclosing any suspicious activity that we deemed relevant to money laundering and terrorist financing, which we would give to whichever police force—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Respectfully, I'm asking a very specific question. I'm not getting a response that's adequate to the nature and the seriousness of this committee.

I would ask you to please disclose, given the mandate that you have now stated multiple times leading up to this, which red flags you received and reported on to law enforcement.

[Barry MacKillop]

Madam Chair, with respect, the member's asking whether or not I flagged red flags to somebody that led to the questions to Madame Jacques about seizing bank accounts—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not what I asked. You've extended that question. I asked a very specific question, sir.

[Barry MacKillop]

I'm not at liberty under my legislation, sir, to give you specificity on to whom I disclosed or what I disclosed.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What was the nature of the communications between your agency and the RCMP?

[Barry MacKillop]

We have communications, Madam Chair, on a daily basis with the RCMP in relation to—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Were you in communication prior to the declaration of the emergency regarding suspicious activities of financial transactions related to the occupation and blockades?

[Barry MacKillop]

Madam Chair, FINTRAC's mandate does not extend to the development of the emergency measures act. We were not involved in that nor in discussions on the emergency measures act or the regulations and their creation.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

We have section 4 of the order that also implements a reporting obligation for those entities of suspicious financial transactions and states, and it lists in subsection 4(2) that there's a report to the centre of every financial transaction. Then it has two paragraphs, 4(2)(a) and 4(2)(b), with some more information around money laundering and terrorist financing regulations.

Again, for the fourth or the fifth time, how many transactions were reported under the order after the invocation?

[Barry MacKillop]

Madam Chair, unfortunately, under my legislation, I cannot disclose anything specific in terms of numbers.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, through you, is the witness aware of the constitution of this committee and would it help if we invited them back and perhaps created an in camera scenario—we've all been sworn in—to provide for the clarity of this committee the nature of FINTRAC's role in this?

Was this something you would be willing to discuss if we had to move in camera at a future date, sir?

[Barry MacKillop]

Madam Chair, with all due respect, even in camera, I'm limited by my legislation in what I can and cannot say. We fulfilled our mandate. We did disclose any suspicious transactions—as I normally would—to the RCMP, whether or not—