Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

But, the RCMP has put out a statement that read, “At no time did we“—being the RCMP—“provide a list of donors to financial institutions”. Perhaps I'll allow you or other witnesses to explain to the Canadians watching this committee exactly how determinations were made for the freezing of accounts.

[Isabelle Jacques]

I can't tell you what the RCMP shared with the financial institutions, but certainly, as per the order, the onus was on the financial institution to look at their relationship with their clients on an ongoing basis and make a determination as to whether or not they should freeze assets or stop providing services to their clients.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

So it was the banks that made that determination. Can you also explain to us, consistent with what the banks acted on, the government's intention in putting these measures in place? Was it to freeze the accounts of people participating in the blockades or the organizers of the blockades? Help us to understand that aspect.

[Isabelle Jacques]

The intent was to stop the funding of illegal activities, or certainly curtail it. That was the main goal. The second goal was also to dissuade people from participating in illegal activities on the Hill, so it had two goals.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

I think you've already clarified that it was the bank making those determinations, but can you point us to on what basis they would make the determinations? Is it on the basis of anything that we provided or on the terms of their own conditions?

I believe banks have terms of service, Madame Jacques. Was it on that basis that they would do so or on something else?

[Isabelle Jacques]

They have terms of service. I don't know if I could say it was on those terms of service that they did it, but what they had in their possession was information provided by the RCMP. On top of that, they would also have to do their own assessment because, ultimately, they had to make the determination to cease providing a service to a customer—basically, freezing accounts.

They could also use their own internal programs and search capacity to determine whether there were suspicious transactions that met the definition of the order.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to pick up on something my colleague raised earlier. Mr. Motz was pointing you to search and seizure provisions in the charter. Was anything seized as a result of the banks' actions, or are we talking about freezing? Is there a distinction in your opinion?

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Respond briefly, please.

[Isabelle Jacques]

There is a big distinction, yes.

There was no seizing of assets. They were frozen.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you very much.

We will now move on to Monsieur Fortin for five minutes.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us today.

I'm going to continue with Ms. Jacques.

Ms. Jacques, you just said that no accounts were seized and that they were merely frozen. Can you explain to me the distinction you draw between freezing and seizing an account?

[Isabelle Jacques]

First, you have to refer to section 2 of the order, which provides that financial service providers "must…cease…making available any property, including funds or virtual currency, to…a designated person or to a person acting on behalf of…a designated person."

There really was a duty to cease dealings. Consequently, the financial service providers stopped making funds available. They didn't seize funds, but rather retained or froze them, as it were.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Then what is a seizure if it's not a freezing of funds?

[Isabelle Jacques]

To my mind, a seizure occurs when a creditor directs a seizure of property belonging to a debtor. In this instance, there was no creditor attempting to be reimbursed. The bank didn't seize the money for a creditor; it merely froze the funds, by which I mean it rendered them inaccessible for the period of time during which the person was engaged in illegal activities.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

All right, I understand. I'm not sure I'd define seizure the same way, but I understand your point of view.

That being said, how did it all work, Ms. Jacques? You say the government didn't seize or freeze any accounts, but then you say the financial institutions did. Who instructed the financial institutions? I don't imagine it happened by chance. No one froze people's accounts simply because they were on Parliament Hill. What was the process? Did you discuss the matter with the financial institutions? How did it all go down?

[Isabelle Jacques]

After the order was tabled and made public, given the extraordinary nature of the situation, we of course communicated with various representatives of the financial industry, including the Canadian Bankers Association, Desjardins and other associations, so they could question us about how the process would be carried out. We spoke with those representatives, and they knew they were ultimately responsible for making the decisions. They knew that the RCMP could provide them with information, which it did. They also knew they had an obligation to review their client relationships constantly to ensure no individuals or entities were using funds illegally.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Did you or anyone from your office instruct any financial institution to freeze or seize bank accounts?

[Isabelle Jacques]

No, never. No such instruction was given.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Were the frozen accounts reported to you?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Yes.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

How frequently did you receive reports on those activities?

[Isabelle Jacques]

Once the order was in force, it took a few days for us to start receiving reports. A few days later, the Canadian Bankers Association began reporting daily, at the end of the day, on accounts frozen by the financial institutions.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Could you possibly forward copies of those reports to us, Ms. Jacques?

[Isabelle Jacques]

I'll try to see if I can send them to you, but I'll have to inquire.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

When you say you'll have to check and see if you can send them to us, do you mean you have to get authorization to do so?