Economic Relationship between Canada and the United States Committee on March 18th, 2021

[Joseph Mancinelli]

I'm not sure that she should be proceeding at all. I mean, that's my opinion. First of all, I think she is in violation of a treaty between both of our countries, and I think there should be very strong and vigorous intervention by our Canadian government to ensure that the United States abides by the treaty, which was, hopefully, well thought out back in 1977, and stop this from moving forward.

Second, I was under the impression that pipelines were in federal jurisdiction, and she shouldn't be usurping that power of the federal government, quite frankly, in the state of Michigan.

I think there are ways of stopping this from happening, because I think it will be catastrophic. There are thousands of jobs that will be affected—not just in the construction sector. I want to make that very clear. The number of construction jobs to build the new pipeline, or even to maintain this pipeline, is minute in comparison to all the other sectors and everything else. This is not a parochial pitch from the construction industry to keep construction jobs open. This is catastrophic for so many sectors.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

What do you think is motivating the State of Michigan to do this with Line 5, which has been in operation for decades? As you said, the Keystone case is different and more straightforward, so it's understandable why President Biden did what he did.

[Joseph Mancinelli]

I'm not sure I can answer that. I don't understand it. I think it defies logic, because even from a political point of view I think the effect she would have on the number of jobs in Michigan...would definitely outnumber the environmentalists who are in Michigan as well.

I don't understand the political dynamics. I don't understand the economic dynamics. It's frustrating for us in the construction industry and in the labour movement to understand why any governor would take action like this that would affect the lives of so many people. I just don't see the positives or the logic behind it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Thank you, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

The final six minutes in the round go to Mr. Masse.

Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Masse. You have six minutes, please.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks for having me.

I represent Windsor West, which has 35% of Canada's daily trade. Pre-COVID, it was 40,000 vehicles, that being 10,000 trucks and 30,000 cars. We're down to about 5,000 to 6,000 trucks and just a few hundred cars, or a few thousand cars, depending on the day, because of COVID.

The effects on the border community are really paramount to me. For the last number of days, as one of the vice-chairs...and I'm joined by a number of colleagues here from different parties who are also part of that. There is Mr. McKay, and I see Mr. Hoback as well. We have been lobbying Congress for years.

I found, over the last number of days, that there isn't a sophistication level or enough information that has quite reached some of the congressional representatives about the issue. I found that presenting facts and information, as opposed to motivation of individuals, was more effective to get it done, but I'm also concerned about the effects on communities.

I want to ask this of Mr. McMichael, as the district labour council president.

I know that, in our community here, we actually had studies of kids going to school with backpacks to measure the toxins they got from the trucks we have in our community. We're finally building a brand new bridge. What would be the effect of shutting this down and altering the routes for trucks and that type of movement in traffic?

[Jason McMichael, Director of Government and Community Relations, LiUNA Local 1089, Laborers' International Union of North America]

Thank you, MP Masse.

You're quite correct, Mr. Masse, in that the effects to my community, Sarnia-Lambton, would be profound.

We've heard so eloquently from vice-president Mancinelli and my colleague Mr. Strickland that you'd see an additional 2,000 trucks per day on the roads. What we haven't heard is that Sarnia-Lambton, as a refinery hub already and a border community, has a tremendous amount of truck traffic on the roads.

For example, you mentioned the Ambassador Bridge. The Blue Water Bridge is the second-busiest commercial crossing in North America, seeing about 4,000 trucks per day in non-pandemic times. Conversely to the Ambassador Bridge, that's 4,000 trucks both ways, east and west bound, meaning about 2,000 trucks coming into Canada per day.

To increase that traffic, to double that traffic, would have a significant effect on the infrastructure, on our main thoroughfares going through to the refineries and on our communities. The environmental effect on our community of an additional 2,000 trucks per day would be profound. This is an issue that will affect, literally, every single level of the economy in Sarnia-Lambton, from....

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Mancinelli mentioned.... This is different from Keystone, which really goes over like a lead balloon when talking to Congress right now. This is different. This is about existing infrastructure. It's ironic. Mr. Mancinelli mentioned that some of these are going for auto parts and other economic commerce.

To Mr. McMichael again, what would be the consequences to other industries of our integrated auto industry having to mix in all those trucks with just-in-time delivery and the other types of materials we need to compete through the North American chain, and suddenly having that as an extra level of congestion?

I fear the repercussions of slowing down those movements, especially as investment decisions are pending and we're competing with the east.

[Jason McMichael]

Absolutely. Thank you for that question, MP Masse.

As you know, with just-in-time delivery being so crucial to the automotive industry, to further clog our routes with trucks, with the number of trucks that we already have travelling those routes, would have a significantly detrimental effect on a number of industries—not just the automotive industry, but especially the automotive industry, where we rely on just-in-time parts delivery on a daily basis.

It would have a dramatic effect on everything, from automotive to the refinery industry to all of the parts plants that supply both the refineries and the automotive industry. I can't possibly overstate the effect this would have on our economy.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Additionally, the pounding on the infrastructure we have would be significant. We see that as our roads are ripped apart. I assume that Port Huron—I've been through there many times—would also have, on the American side, repercussions. All those additional trucks would scatter across different communities and neighbourhoods that they were never in before.

To be fair to the governor here, most recently she sided with Canada to stop the Ambassador Bridge from having hazardous materials trucks cross, with her lobbying efforts, because that would have put haz-mat trucks all through communities all over the place.

I fear the same thing here. As we move these trucks off the rail, hazardous materials trucks will scatter across Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and of course Ontario and Quebec.

[Jason McMichael]

Yes. The irony that is not lost on me, on the border congestion that would be created with this, is that the majority of those trucks.... In non-pandemic times, there were already trucks lined miles back on both the I-69 and I-94 into Michigan. Those trucks already exist on a normal day. To add 2,000 trucks a day to that....

Those trucks are parked literally in the governor's backyard. Those emissions, as those trucks idle on the highway waiting to cross the bridge, will be going into the backyards of her constituents. Then, once they cross that bridge, they enter into our communities. That isn't good for any of us, especially for the folks in Michigan where those trucks would be idling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

Just quickly, Mr. Mancinelli, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about the auto parts you mentioned. Ironically, this is for green auto investment. Detroit has had, I think, $16 billion over the last four or five years for electrification. Can you confirm the impact on that?

I know you have only a few seconds, but I think it's important.

[Joseph Mancinelli]

You know, the petroleum that's used on electric vehicles makes up 50% of those vehicles. The effect would be devastating on the automotive industry as well. I think Line 5 would have a fairly dramatic effect on Governor Whitmer's economy in Detroit, where a lot of these vehicles are produced.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

Colleagues, we're running a little bit short of time. Just to make sure we have one more question for each party, the next questions will be four minutes, four minutes, two minutes and two minutes. That will end the round.

Mr. Lewis, you have four minutes, please.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to each witness for coming forward today. We certainly appreciate your testimony.

My first question is for you, Mr. Mancinelli. Specifically, I really, really appreciate your mentioning, sir, that this is much larger than just petroleum and just oil. It affects so many fronts. It affects our farmers, the 38,000 farmers in Ontario you spoke of; of course the auto industry; and of course our advanced manufacturers, whose motto is really, “We make things to make things.”

I also heard you say, sir, that there were 15,000 good-paying union jobs in Michigan. There must be some kind of collective effort to be lobbying Governor Whitmer. What specifically has the Michigan union done to help the cause, going forward? Are they lobbying the governor as well?

[Joseph Mancinelli]

Yes. There's no question about it. The 15,000 I mentioned in my presentation are just our members, LiUNA members, but I have 15,000 members whom I represent there as well. That does not include all the rest of the building trades unions within Michigan that are up in arms—the UA and the operating engineers and the many, many other sectors of the unionized sector as well. The list goes on and on.

There is a very active lobby going on in Michigan, by all of the trades, talking to Governor Whitmer and sending letters to Governor Whitmer, basically saying what I just said today: This is not a logical solution.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Strickland, I really appreciated your saying that there has to be some type of bilateral approach. I very much agree with you that it can't be just the United States or Michigan talking to Canada. It has to be very integrated and very bilateral.

I'm wondering, though, because the Canadian government has fallen, quite frankly, on its face with regard to the oil industry in the west, if you think perhaps that might be an out for the governor to say, “Listen, we can do what we want to do anyway, because you can't even get your own house in order.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Mr. Strickland, I have a note from the interpreters asking if you could just raise your mike a little bit.

[Sean Strickland]

Sure. Is that better?

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

That's better, yes. Thank you.

[Sean Strickland]

Great.

No, I don't think that's part of the thinking. I think what's happening in Michigan is made in Michigan.

On your earlier question to Mr. Mancinelli with respect to what we're doing on the States side, the North America’s Building Trades Unions and Canada's Building Trades Unions have formed a bilateral committee. We have representation from Michigan building trades, Ohio building trades, Washington and my Canadian office, who are lobbying and advocating for this going forward and doing whatever we can to make sure the easement is not cancelled.

I think it's also important to recognize that the general presidents of our unions have existing relationships with the governor. Meetings have taken place with the governor. This was also raised when our general presidents had a meeting with President Biden a couple of weeks ago.

As I said in my remarks, this is a high priority for both our organizations on both sides of the border. It has been raised in the highest offices in the U.S. and Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

You have 20 seconds, Mr. Lewis.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It won't be a question; it will be one very quick statement, the one I really want to lay on MP Masse. He hit the nail on the head with regard to commercial congestion. It hits our nurses, our doctors and our business owners who are trying to cross the busiest international border in North America.

It's much larger, as Mr. Mancinelli said.

I thank the witnesses once again.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Thank you, Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Housefather, you may go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Joe, Sean and Jason, it's great to see all of you. Thank you for coming.

This is one of these rare instances where we have common cause, where all parties and pretty much all Canadians are united in questioning the logic of something that, as you said, will have devastating economic impacts on both countries, particularly workers in trades.

It also has a negligible, if any, environmental benefit. I think the study Enbridge had brought forward in the lawsuit showed that there was a one in 2,000 chance that the four-mile stretch under the Straits of Mackinac could have a leak in a year, and it would only take a couple of years to get the tunnel built.

Again, it's a puzzling thing, and given the fact that you guys have a lot of leverage, in the sense that you have members on both sides of the border, I'm wondering in terms of the intervention, Joe, that you made at the Michigan Legislature a couple of days ago, does the Michigan Legislature itself consider that it has the power to step in to override the governor's revocation of the easement?