Evidence of meeting #24 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was saskatchewan.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
You've raised a great point. I'll come back to it at my next question.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thanks. I appreciate your indulgence, Ms. Sahota.
We'll go to Mr. Maguire for five minutes. Thank you for joining us today. You're the next on the list, Mr. Maguire.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Okay, then we'll switch it around if everyone is in agreement.
Go ahead, Mr. Rayes.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Boda and Mr. Smith, thank you for being here today. I join my colleague in thanking everyone here today to attend this meeting of this important committee.
Mr. Boda, my first question is for you.
I will certainly seek your opinion, too, Mr. Smith.
You said in your intervention that election administrators were all concerned about access for all eligible voters. You said that these administrators must make sure that the provisions on the integrity of the vote are effective and free from any consequences that would deprive voters of their right to vote. You said that these provisions must facilitate the vote, not hinder it, and that adopting an electoral system that would encourage the participation of voters could well be one of the best options for reversing this long decline in voter turnout.
Could you please tell us a little more about these issues. When we take a look at the global trend, we see that regardless the voting system, the number of people who vote is declining in almost every country worldwide right now. I find it very surprising that a correlation is being established between the voting system and a possible increase in the number of voters who vote. Furthermore, 70% of Canadians voted in Canada's last election. You also state that we should start to be concerned if the voter turnout rate drops below 50%.
Do you think changing the voting system will increase voter turnout in the medium and long-term?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan
Thank you for your question.
I am fundamentally concerned about the direction that turnout is going in western democracies and here in Canada.
In our last general election here in Saskatchewan, we did something that was a bit different. A document I'll be releasing to the Legislative Assembly in the next couple of months describes how we, instead of measuring the number of registered voters, changed to assessing turnout vis-à-vis the number of eligible voters.
Traditionally, when we measured it against registered voters, our turnout numbers were in the range of 65%; in this particular context, when we looked at it in the context of eligible voters, it went down in 2016 to 53.5% of eligible voters, but in 2011 it was 51.1%, so we actually saw an increase in turnout for this election vis-à-vis eligible voters.
However, to me—and the people of Saskatchewan will hear more about this in the fall—it is of fundamental concern, because so many voters have essentially checked out and are not part of the process.
Your question had to do with whether a change in the system would, in the short term or in the long run, increase voter turnout. I guess my response would be that I don't know. I can't answer that question, other than to say there are very many variables, many elements, in an election system—which is inclusive of an electoral system—that have an impact on voter turnout. I can't say that a change in the electoral system will have the impact of increasing the number of voters who turn out. What I would say is that it's one of those variables, and there are certainly unintended consequences to implementing new electoral systems as you move forward, so you don't know what might happen.
Conservative
Prof. Charles Smith
Well, here is a question I would respond with. What is the incentive to vote if you're a Conservative in downtown Toronto or if you're a New Democrat in rural Saskatchewan? What's the motivation? If you're a Green Party supporter anywhere except for southern Vancouver Island, what's the incentive? You know, based on past evidence, that there is almost no chance that your vote is going to count. You are going to lose, so if you're a voter in those ridings, then you're not empowered to vote.
Now, maybe you will, because you're committed to the democratic process, or maybe you won't because there is just no point, but your vote isn't going to have the same weight that it would if you were a Conservative in rural Saskatchewan or a Liberal in downtown Toronto or a New Democrat in the western part of British Columbia.
I can't say for certain that electoral reform will change voter turnout, but I don't know if the current barriers are something we can address through electoral reform.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Thank you.
I want to start by saying how delighted I am to be in Regina and Saskatchewan, in the province in which I was born and raised. I look forward to the open mike session this afternoon and to hearing many residents of the province with their thoughts on electoral reform.
I want to jump back to where Professor Smith left off with my colleague Ms. Sahota. You were cut off by our ruthless moderator as you were talking about the absence of francophone representation and urban indigenous representation in Saskatchewan.
I'm curious about your thoughts. Would a change in the system in Saskatchewan and a change in the system nationally address those concerns? I think that's where we were getting to when you ran out of time.
Prof. Charles Smith
I think it provides an opening. If the voting system is to empower voters and citizens, then the question is, can we do better? The data points out that most Canadians see the federal government and the provincial governments as the sites of political power in the country. I think there's an agnostic feeling, or at least a lot of people are feeling quite alienated from their governments, and those are some of the explanations for falling voter turnout rates.
My argument is that if we can empower people to have a voice in Ottawa, in Regina, or even at the local level, then we are opening up a lot of space for voices that are currently not at the table. In the five points of priority for your committee, I think that should be at the centre of the question—can we do better at getting more voices to the table on our political process? I would argue that proportional representation provides openings and space that currently don't exist. Will it solve all the problems that we've talked about and provide higher turnout, more gender representation, more minorities, and more people of colour? Maybe or maybe not, but it provides an opening that currently does not exist.
Liberal
John Aldag Liberal Cloverdale—Langley City, BC
Thank you.
I'm going to turn to Dr. Boda for a second.
In your presentation, you talked about such things as increasing ballot access for first nations. As I heard you mention that, I wondered what that looks like. In Saskatchewan, if you've looked at this idea of increasing ballot access for first nations to deal with the low participation rates, what does that look like?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan
It is something that we have been looking at very much here in Saskatchewan.
There are 74 first nations in the province. A lot of people aren't aware of that.
Traditionally, in election administration in the province, whether on the provincial or the federal level, our relationship with first nations was a three-month activity. We would go to our chiefs and have a discussion with them about getting a list in time for the election and getting things organized. We would ask permission to work with them in order to achieve a general election in which they would participate.
Now we've taken a different approach at Elections Saskatchewan, which is that we believe we need to have a long-term relationship, an equal and respectful relationship, with our first nations chiefs, so we have reached out to our 74 chiefs in order to work with them on an ongoing basis.
I began as Chief Electoral Officer in 2012. This time around we began to ramp up almost a year before the process. We began to touch base with our chiefs and asked them to appoint individuals who could work with us to get the lists in place and we asked them to work on what it means to have identification for the process. As an election administrator, I don't focus on voter turnout. What I focus on is barriers. For every single voter in the province, I'm concerned about possible barriers; in that community, identification is an issue, so we began to work with them on that.
After the last general election, our next step will be to maintain relationships across the province with the 74 chiefs so that come the next general election, they will be aware of what is required to be able to vote.
It's about an ongoing relationship of respect with first nations chiefs and their people, and that's what we're doing.
Liberal
Sheri Benson NDP Saskatoon West, SK
Thank you very much, Chair, and my thanks to the presenters today.
I'm very proud to be here. I had to go a really long way to get here. I had to zip down from Saskatoon to be in Regina, and I love Regina, even though we sometimes have a sort of battle between our two cities.
Mr. Boda, I'm interested in the comments you made about looking at the number of eligible voters who aren't registered, as opposed to just looking at voter turnout. We're always looking for a way to gauge how well we're doing with respect to the percentage of people who are voting. Could you talk a little bit about your response as an electoral officer when you start to see voter turnout going lower and you start to have concerns about the legitimacy of democracy? As an electoral officer, what do you work at in order to look at that problem? You're looking at it in a particular way. It's different from changing the voting system, and I understand that. What were the pieces that triggered the need to make some changes?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan
I'll go back to my previous comment about barriers and getting the vote out. Often there is the thought that election administrators are responsible for voter turnout, and I'm not of that view. I believe that Elections Saskatchewan and Elections Canada are actors among many actors who are responsible for voter turnout in the country.
Those of you sitting around the table—you and your political parties—are major stakeholders in terms of voter turnout. Third party not-for-profits, civic organizations, and our educational system are stakeholders.
I view Elections Saskatchewan as being part of that process. Where we are perhaps unique, and have a comparative advantage, is in looking at barriers to voting. To answer your question, that is where my focus is. It has to do with looking at what the barrier is to all of our voters, whether that voter is at the University of Saskatchewan or the University of Regina, whether they're in a particular area where there is a lot of mobility and people have been moving in and moving out and are not on our permanent register, and whether that has to do with our 74 first nations, where there is clearly a lot of mobility. We will do a targeted enumeration in that context.
My focus is on the barriers and how we can diminish those barriers going forward.
NDP
Sheri Benson NDP Saskatoon West, SK
That's great.
Professor Smith, who is responsible for voter turnout?
I want to give you an example. We talk a lot about public education and those kinds of things. We talk a lot about that. I don't think we do those kinds of things very well. During the last election, I did a lot of voter education on the doorstep.
We can't look at the system now and somehow think that people understand how it's working and therefore it's working. There are barriers to voting. We have issues around helping people become engaged with voting and with helping them to understand the system.
Who is responsible for voter turnout? Do we just leave it to Fair Vote Canada and the local community association? Someone needs to be responsible, if voters are at the centre of a system.
Prof. Charles Smith
The bigger question that we need to answer is why people aren't voting, why 30% don't show up at the polls, depending on the election.
We can't measure it election by election. We need to look at it over time. Pollsters and some quantitative researchers have put forward the idea that people don't know the issues or don't feel smart enough or what have you. I am not convinced of that. I think there is actually legitimacy in apathy, that there are actually people who seem apathetic because they don't feel that their views, their history, and their cultures are reflected in the institutions they are seeing in front of them, and that cuts across class, gender, race, etc.
If we recognize that people are apathetic or angry or alienated from the system, then the answer isn't that it's their fault; the answer is that our institutions are not doing a good enough job. We need to understand what barriers our institutions are presenting so that Canadians can participate in their electoral process, because without that I share Mr. Boda's concern that if people are more and more apathetic about our institutional democracy, then at what point does our democracy become illegitimate?
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the presenters for being here today and making your points as clearly as you have.
I just want to say that as a neighbour to Saskatchewan in the Brandon—Souris area just to the east of us here, I have probably as many people voting with their support for the Saskatchewan Roughriders as I have for the Blue Bombers.
You made the point, Mr. Boda, that we've looked at many large rural and remote areas. Coming from a rural riding, I want to say there are difficulties in some of those ridings in how people are able to vote. I'd like to get a comment from you from your perspective as a chief electoral officer in regard to how you see that changing under some of the new options that might be available today.
In bigger constituencies, is it easier to have people come out and vote, or is it still a determination of size and cost in relation to running elections?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan
With respect, I'm going to defer and ask Mr. Smith. I don't think I would want to make a comment on comparing them.
Prof. Charles Smith
Could you ask the question again, please? I thought it was directed specifically at him.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Specifically with regard to rural and remote areas, the comment was that it's tougher for people to be able to get to vote, because they don't have the same access.
Do you see that changing with bigger areas and even larger regions, or will it be the present system with another system on top of it? Where does cost come into it? I think the big thing is accessibility for the voters and getting them all out to vote. Do you see that changing under other systems?
Prof. Charles Smith
Is your concern that if we moved to a form of proportional representation, rural ridings would become so large that it would become almost impossible for voters to access the polls or to know who their representatives are? Is that the question?