Evidence of meeting #28 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elected.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Professor Derriennic.
We will now go to questions. Ms. Shota, go ahead.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you.
Thank you to both of our witnesses for great presentations.
My first question is for Mr. Derriennic. How is your proposal, your system, different from the single transferable vote, the STV system that we've been hearing a lot about? It sounds very similar to me. Within those systems, we've also been hearing about ranked ballots being proposed.
3:50 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
It is similar to the Irish single transferable vote if we have a preferential vote both for parties and for individual candidates. It is possible to vote only for parties. The objection some politician friends made to me is that the Irish single transferable vote may lead several candidates from the same party to campaign against each other. That may be good, but perhaps parties would rather avoid that.
So the idea is to figure out a vote in which the candidates cannot campaign against each other within the same party, but we can still apply the transferable vote to the choices between parties. My preference is a simplified Irish single transferable vote, with less competition between the candidates from the same party and a less complicated way of calculating results. In my little book, I explain this more fully than I am able to do now.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Then how many candidates would there be? You'd have one candidate run from each party in this larger size of riding that would result from combining a few, you said. How many candidates would you foresee on the ballot in one of these ridings?
3:50 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
There would be as many candidates for each party as there are seats to be filled in the constituency. We can imagine that a party would have the right to present fewer candidates. I don’t think it's a good idea, but I would have to think about it. That might create distortions.
In a proportional system, political parties usually prepare a list of candidates equal to the number of seats in the constituency. That's what probably should be done. If you want to run candidates in a constituency with three seats, you will have to submit three. You have to make a list of three, four or five candidates, depending on the size of the constituency.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Then essentially you would have candidates of the same party running against each other.
For instance, my city of Brampton currently has five ridings. We would take away those riding boundaries and, let's say, take the city boundary instead and have five of each party competing against each other.
I'm not quite clear. You said that in your system you wouldn't have candidates competing from the same party, but you would, essentially.
3:50 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
If the Irish system is applied, there may be competition between the candidates from the same party. It is possible to adopt a moderate proportional system with ranked ballots, with closed lists, and people choose only from the lists. If a party is entitled to two elected representatives, they will be the two elected at the top of the list. That's what many countries with proportional representation are doing.
A choice has to be made. In my view as an activist for changing the voting system, if you choose one or the other, it will be very good, and perhaps a little better if you opt for the Irish system. However, people will be tearing their hair out, saying that it is too complicated. That’s not true; it is not so complicated if we make an effort to explain it clearly.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
In the earlier panel we heard that the human brain will not go beyond computing seven candidates. For the city of Brampton, with five ridings and five candidates for each party—and we had five parties running one time, so it would be five times five—you end up with quite a long ballot.
How do you get past the confusion voters would have going to the polls, not knowing how to make an educated judgment on that many candidates? The selection is just....
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
If you ask the voters to choose between closed lists, they will have five boxes in which to indicate their first choice, second choice, and so on, for the parties. If they vote as they do in Ireland, there will be 25 boxes, or five candidates per party, for a total of 25 candidates. We must certainly not allow voters to fully list their order of preference. This is done in Australia and I don't think it's a good idea. It's not the case in Ireland. People voice their first three or four choices and they do not express an opinion on the rest. Their vote counts in the case of the first three, four or five choices. In almost all instances, this will not have a significant impact on the results.
I do not think this will result in huge ballot papers.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
So under the single transferable vote, we vote for the candidates.
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Yes, that's it.
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
By voting for the candidate, we vote for the party.
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
The Irish system produces a result that is roughly proportional between the parties.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
However, in terms of the system you are talking about, we always vote for the candidate. Is it always the same?
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Not necessarily.
I may be repeating myself, but it can be done with closed lists. In that case, we just vote for a list. Clearly, this will result in the candidates on the list being elected. However, we can give voters a choice not only of parties but of party candidates, if we want them to express a preference between the party candidates—
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Not necessarily.
In Ireland, there are 25 candidates, assuming that there are five parties and five candidates per party. The parties are ranked. A candidate of a party is ranked first; then in second place comes a candidate of the same party; in third, a candidate from another party, and so on. This affects both the results of the candidates and the results of the parties.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Under this system, can we vote both for the party and for the five candidates? I personally don't see the difference between the single transferable vote and this system, when you arrive at the polling station.
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
Take the example of a ballot paper that indicates: “Liberal Party: candidate A, candidate B and candidate C; NDP: candidate A, candidate B and candidate C”, and so on, with boxes to record numbers. There is one for the Liberal Party, but not for the candidates. There is one for the NDP, but not for the candidates. Voting takes place between closed lists.
3:55 p.m.
Associate professor, Department of political science, Université Laval, As an Individual
The question is whether you decide to choose one system or the other. I don't think the political difference is huge. So if you opt for one or the other, I would be very happy.
There must be ranked ballots between the parties because of the small parties and because it is very unfair to be in a society where 20% to 25% of the people want to vote for political parties that they rank first, but don't do so because they know it's a wasted vote.
We must put an end to that. We can improve things by also providing the choice between the candidates individually, but we don't have to.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Derriennic, one of the things that strikes me about this matter, and based on my political experience, is the importance for the citizens of Canada, or at least of Quebec, to vote for a local representative. In my view, if we asked the people what is the most important consideration in making their choice, this would be one of the predominant factors.
You talked about a closed list system, and I understood it fully from your last explanation. I personally don't think it's so simple, but perhaps people could grasp it if it were explained to them.
Take, for example, Quebec City, which has seven federal ridings. So there would be one block of seven Conservative MPs, one block of seven Liberals, one block of seven New Democrats, one block of seven Green Party representatives, and so on. People would make their choices in order of preference, from one to five, for example.
By doing that, I feel that we would be overlooking the candidates' skills, experience and background. Once the calculations are done, some candidates might wonder how this or that candidate will be appointed. For example, the names of which seven candidates would appear on the Conservatives' list? In your view, would that be done from a list predetermined by the party?