Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 29th, 2016

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I recall the minister stating clearly that she looked forward to receiving the recommendations from this committee, which impressed upon me then and continues to impress upon me the importance of this committee's work in trying to find some consensus recommendations to deliver to the executive branch. Of course, we know this is the first step in what could be a very intriguing process. This whole process has been intriguing for me and has been one of a lot of self-education on a variety of issues: the substance of electoral reform, governance in general, and the politics at play in this whole conversation, which is fascinating as well.

One thing I struggle with, or that I'm having a hard time to grasp, is how it's a question of minority rights. I'm not a legal scholar. I do understand the basic premise of minority rights as ensuring that, for example, persons from a racialized minority or from other disadvantaged situations are afforded the same equality as everyone else, but are we extending that interpretation to include partisan leanings or political affiliation? Please help me with that.

[David Nash]

I don't see it as a different matter. People in Canada have the right to vote. Minority groups in Canada do not have the right to have their vote properly recognized, so this is a minority right.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Partisan interests...?

[David Nash]

Partisan interests or whatever else you want to put it down as; you may just end up with a lot of Sikhs running the country. I don't know what's going on. I'm simply saying that any group that is small and has a unique view of the world has the right in this country to have that view expressed, if it's a sufficiently large group.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Cannot persons of ethnic minority find representation in the system now? They can run for office—

[David Nash]

Of course they can.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Of course, we're always moving to more effective representation, and I'd love to hear from Mr. Blain as well.

Effective representation can mean a lot of different things. It could mean better representation in Parliament of the political choice of electors. It could mean a government that is able to effectively produce public policy. It can be a loaded term, so share with me your reflections on that.

[David Blain]

I go beyond that, because unless the body we elect is a mirror image of the people of Canada, not only in terms of political leanings but also in terms of ethnic background, race, and gender, we don't have effective representation. Effective representation means that we should have 50% women and the appropriate percentage of aboriginal people represented in the House.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Is that a matter of political will as much as anything else?

[David Blain]

No.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

It's not?

[David Blain]

I don't think so, because our electoral system doesn't do it. The first past the post system simply does not represent small parties and minorities as well as a larger group of votes over a broader area.

Check STV. With first past the post, you need 30%, 40%, or 50%. That's 30,000 to 40,000 votes to get elected. Those don't represent the people. If you put several districts together and you have seven-member districts, you can get elected with 12.5% of the vote, but everybody going to Parliament is going to have 80,000 votes. That's equal legislative power.

For minorities, both in terms of women and in terms of indigenous people, we need to have quotas. There's no question in my mind about it. Even though STV helps that process, we need to accelerate it. We need everybody represented. We're way behind.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I can accept, then, that interpretation of effective representation is having Parliament near what Canada looks like.

Is it fair to say that there are other ways to interpret that effectiveness of representation?

[David Blain]

Anybody can interpret it however they want, but the courts when they interpret it, and I'm not a lawyer—

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Neither am I. We share that in common.

[David Blain]

They said that the candidates talked about slow, uneven steps toward effective representation, and first past the post is clearly, in my mind, not effective representation.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Jolibois, please.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you very much for both your inputs.

Mr. Blain, I'm sitting here thinking that you said equal votes for equal representation. I come from a riding.... I own half of the province, but yet we don't have a population of 80,000 in that area. I'm trying to figure out what that would look like under your proposal.

[David Blain]

Basically, for seven-member districts, it's like taking seven current electoral districts and putting them together. Within that group of districts—which might be the northern half of Saskatchewan, for example, probably going down below Davidson and that area—all of the people in that area would rank the many candidates who'd run. You would have several candidates running for each political party. The voter would then get to choose which they preferred by ranking each candidate.

I didn't bother to explain STV. I'm sorry. I should have taken the extra time to do that, but it's simply a ranking system. What happens is that you end up electing seven people. There's a quota system in a seven-member district. You take seven plus one is eight. Then you take one eighth of the voters, 12.5% of the vote, and everybody who reaches 12.5% of the vote plus one vote gets elected. The ballots in excess get transferred over to the next one. The second choices get transferred over in proportion to what's left over.

I think it does a better job. In Australia it does an amazing job. The Senate has long outperformed the House of Representatives, which uses alternative vote, single-member district, in terms of the representation of women and the representation of the aboriginal people of Australia.

It does a good job in that sense, but I don't think that's fast enough for those two groups.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I am listening to the words around “equal, fair representation”. I am a Canadian, but I live in northern Saskatchewan. When I look around my community and I see the disparities that exist and that it's still not equal under the current system, I agree with that. However, I'm still trying to figure out what each proposal would look like for the mid north in the provinces and for the Far North.

[David Blain]

I don't know if I have much more to add. In terms of the Far North, I would respect the territorial boundaries of the Far North in terms of the three northern territories and let them each elect one member, as they do now. As for northern Saskatchewan, I know that area is huge; I grew up in Saskatchewan. It is merely the electoral system that I'm talking about because there are many other things that need to be addressed on a two-nation basis. That goes beyond what I am talking about with regard to the electoral system.

New Zealand did it with quotas for the Maori people. In fact, the Maori people now exceed the base quota. They are a larger portion of the House there than their percentage of the population.

It can be done with a good system and quotas.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you have any thoughts, Mr. Nash?

[David Nash]

Yes. I think I've tried to deal with the problem of large ridings in the north, but in provinces, by simply including them despite their slightly lower populations. If they're unreasonably large, and you can't make them any larger...by including them as if they are ridings in all respects except their low population, similar to all the other ridings in a proportionality zone.

The question that came to me when I was thinking about this, however, is that I want to know whether the first nations, and the Métis and the Inuit, have a means they would be happy with for representation. And I think that basically it's not the rest of Canada's job to deal with that problem. I think it's a question that the federal government has jurisdiction over first nations and has to come up with a system within whatever other system we choose that satisfies them. And that could include their simply saying, “We'll throw our lot in with the general new system. We're happy with that.”

I think, for example, in Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan, it may well be that there will be a focused first nations interest group that will put up candidates, and I don't see there's anything wrong with that in exactly the same system as everybody else is using. They would get representation in a fair proportional representation system.

Edmonton has an area of something around 300,000 persons, and they would probably take five seats.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.