Evidence of meeting #37 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was seats.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Amanda Bittner  Associate Professor, Memorial University, As an Individual
Christopher Dunn  As an Individual
Robert Ring  As an Individual
Marilyn Reid  As an Individual
Brendon Dixon  President, Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Parliament
Fred Winsor  As an Individual
Helen Forsey  As an Individual
Kathleen Burt  As an Individual
Greg Malone  As an Individual
Mary Power  As an Individual
Kelsey Reichel  As an Individual
Liam O'Neill  As an Individual
Kenneth LeDez  As an Individual
Michael Chalker  As an Individual
Earle McCurdy  Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party
Jean Ledwell  As an Individual
David Brake  As an Individual
Lev Tarasoff  As an Individual
Norman Whalen  As an Individual
Peter Roth  As an Individual

6:15 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

I am someone with a fair bit of experience in casting a vote, which at the end of the day didn't appear to count for anything except the feeling of participating in something when I picked up the pencil. I was certainly pleased to have a commitment that we've had our last first-past-the-post election in Canada.

I'd start with, for me, what the objectives of the new system are. I personally believe we need a change. We've had that system since the day of the horse and buggy. It certainly wasn't designed with the current Canada in mind.

There are a few things I would mention as objectives of a new system. I am more concerned about the fundamental characteristics than about the exact mechanics. I think the important ones are that it fairly translates votes into seats and does that on a national basis, which would therefore remove the disproportionate weight that the current system gives to concentrated blocks of votes on a regional basis. It should be something that retains the principle of local representation as a characteristic of the House, at least in part. It should be designed, which I believe is possible, to help achieve objectives regarding gender, minority, and aboriginal representation, or whatever, and it should be a system where people have the feeling that when they vote, it's going to count, regardless of which district they are in.

If I look at the current system, I see that it has certainly produced major regional distortions. Perhaps the most extreme example I can think of, in my time, of the outcome in seats really being out of whack with how Canadians voted would be the 1993 election. The Progressive Conservative Party—not on the strength of any vote that I cast for them, I might say—had more votes than the Bloc, but the Conservatives had two seats, and the Bloc had 54. There is something about it that just doesn't make sense. A lot more Canadians voted in that election for the party with two seats than voted for the party with 54 seats.

There are other examples. As you probably know, I am the leader of the provincial NDP, and in case you don't, that's who I am. In Quebec, in the 2011 election, our party had an excellent result in terms of votes, but our vote percentage was practically doubled by our seat percentage. The Conservatives in Alberta, over a number of elections, certainly had a strong vote, but they didn't get everybody's vote, and yet they got all the seats in some elections. There are any number of examples where it has really been out of whack.

The worst thing you can probably have is a modest level of support that's spread fairly consistently throughout the country. You can end up with 20% of the vote and not get a seat, depending on how your vote is scattered.

Also, first past the post has produced false majorities in the last two elections, and in a number of others as well, in that governments were elected with a majority of seats in Parliament without enjoying the support of the majority of Canadians in the election.

One of the arguments I've seen put forward for first past the post is stability; you don't have to keep having minority governments, and have another election, another election, and so on. But if you look at what's actually transpired, our average duration of elections since World War II is roughly the same as a whole bunch of countries that have other than first past the post, that have some version of proportional representation, for the most part. They actually had, if anything, in some cases, a longer average term in all the elections since World War II.

The other thing, of course, is, who says a minority government is an unstable outcome? I believe we've had 13 in the country over the years. Our medicare program, our pension plan, and our flag all came about in minority governments, so I don't think someone should necessarily say it's a terrible thing to have.

I realize this is a federal committee, but I thought it might be just a little instructive to refer to results in the last two provincial elections as to how that worked out under the first past the post system. Interestingly, in 2011, a Progressive Conservative government was elected, and last year a Liberal government was elected; and in both cases they had in the range of 56% to 57% of the vote. In both cases they ended up with about 77% of the seats. In both cases, in other words, under any system we would have had a majority government. But what we've had have been lopsided majority governments, which I don't think make the legislature function as well as it could or should.

I'll circulate, at some point, a graphic that shows the 2011 election on top and the 2015 on the bottom, and it shows the actual seat distribution on the left, and what the seat distribution would be on the right, if the seats were distributed in proportion to the votes. As you can see, it would be more balanced, though still a majority legislature in both cases. A particular quirk of the 2011 election is that our party got 24.6% of the vote, I think it was, and the Liberals got 19.1%. They ended up being the official opposition because they got six seats to our five, just because they won three or four cliffhangers, and we lost three or four cliffhangers, or a couple; and although we significantly out-polled them, we ended up as the third party.

I just wanted to make the point that what has happened federally has also happened provincially, as we had a similar, distorted outcome relative to how Newfoundlanders and Labradorians voted, and the seat distribution didn't do a very good job of matching that.

For example, we currently have 31 out of 40 seats on the government side, seven in the official opposition, and two for us in the third party. Had it just been seats by popular vote, it would have been 23 on the government side, 12 in the official opposition, and five in the third party, which, I think, would have the potential to be a much more dynamic and effective legislature, while still having a majority government.

I commented on some of the objectives of what would work. I think one suggestion I've seen in some comment areas is a minimum-vote threshold to get a seat, and I think that would want to be a fairly modest minimum. But I think there still should be one to lessen the risk of extremist or single-issue parties getting representation where that would not be possible in the current system.

If people were to feel that every vote counts, I think there would be the potential to increase turnouts. Our level of turnout now in the country is not anything to brag about. In our province, in the last couple of federal elections, it was the lowest of all provinces, which is something I'm not proud of. I don't think that's a good outcome.

I don't think the system really suggests to people that their vote is going to make much difference and therefore a lot of people respond to that by staying home.

On the issue of women's representation, proportional representation or some form of it doesn't of itself deliver equal women's representation. I do think it provides an opportunity to address women's participation. If you want to add another goal, say aboriginal participation or participation of minorities, or whatever, if part of the makeup of the House was from lists submitted by the parties there could be some criteria put around those lists that would help achieve equity goals.

I think the important thing in terms of what system we would favour would be one that reflects the popular vote, and the specifics of which particular one is a secondary consideration to me. I would think a multi-partisan committee should be able to work out something that fits the Canadian situation. I don't believe in preferential ballot. It retains—and if anything, has the potential to exacerbate—a lot of the weaknesses of first past the post and does not at all show that the outcome in seats will generally reflect how Canadians voted.

On a final note I don't think there's any referendum required here. I think the position of the parties was clear going into the election. I think there's a mandate. The technicality is really a question of what system do we have and what are the principles of the system. Fundamentally, that's to say let's have the distribution of seats in the House of Commons reflect the will of the people as expressed through their vote. I think that's what really counts.

Thank you.

6:26 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thanks very much, Mr. McCurdy.

We'll proceed to our round of questions starting with Ms. Sahota.

6:26 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Mr. McCurdy.

We've heard a lot about what the election results would look like if we had a proportional system. Our last witness had stated that this committee has to prioritize what its goals are and figure out what problem they're trying to fix before coming up with the solution that would fix that problem. A lot of us were saying there are several problems that we're trying to address.

One of the most important ones that she brought up and one that is important to me and a lot of people around this table is diversity, diversity of opinion, diversity of women and aboriginals like you were just mentioning, and going for a system that in and of itself doesn't really solve those problems. You would still have to do a lot of other things in order to solve those problems. If that is one of the major problems that this committee is trying to resolve then should we not be looking at something that will improve upon that? It seems to me there are so many factors. Every witness comes here and says, well, it's complicated, there are many factors involved, you'd have to put in quotas, or do other things, and there has to be the will of the party to make these changes. Those are debates we're currently having in the House on how to make that change.

First of all, what is your preferred forum of the proportional representation system and how do you think it gets us there?

6:30 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

I wouldn't put myself off as an expert on the details of different systems in place in different countries. At a quick glance, the kind of system they had in New Zealand appeared to have some appeal. The mixed member proportional looks like it has good potential, but there could be another system. If we achieve the goals that I put out, I'm not adamantly tied to any one system, but I would think, of the ones I've read...for example, the parliamentary website had a number of them briefly described and of those mixed member proportional certainly had a lot of the considerations.

In our last provincial election campaign, almost a year ago, there was a debate on women's issues sponsored by the local status of women's council. By the way, in the current provincial legislature, 10 out of 40 are women. One of the questions that was fired at the leadership candidates from the audience was, “Can you make a suggestion on how to increase the number of women in elected office?” It's tough in the current system we have, but just quickly off the top of my head, we had just gone from 48 seats to 40 in a downsizing thing the government decided was a good idea and now the boundaries have been recalculated with 40 seats. We could say let's go back to 48 seats, leave the 40 districts like we have them, and for the other eight, mandate that they will be distributed relative to bringing the resulting seats as close as possible to the popular vote, number one. Also you could include gender balancing objectives so that, for example, the result was eight extra seats and you might calculate those out, so that the Conservatives get five and the NDP get three, then we have a 100% women caucus—

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Those seats would be added on to increase proportionality, but how would those 40 first members get elected? Under what system would they get elected?

6:30 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

The initial 40 would be elected in districts as they currently are. This is just what would be a way—

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Would you elect them by first past the post and then add proportionality seats—

6:30 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

That's one of the ways. In some of the mixed member models, as I understand them, you elect people in districts in some cases by first past the post and in some cases something else, but then you add on seats to achieve the balance. In other words, you don't take away the concept entirely of local representation in a district, but you say perhaps some of your MPs end up coming in that way and some come off a list submitted by the parties. If the parties had an obligation, for example, to have gender balance on that separate list, that would be one way you could do it. The Conservatives currently use the example that provincially, they got seven seats, six men and one woman. If they had five more to reflect the additional seats, then you could have a requirement that you'd have to appoint women, so they'd achieve balance. I think there are ways of doing it, and that was just an example. I'm not suggesting that as any kind of blueprint, but there are ways you can add to achieve equity objectives.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Nater now.

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up on a couple of different points. Initially you talked about the threshold and you thought it should be relatively low, a certain percentage. Do you have a percentage in mind of what that threshold ought to be?

6:30 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

I have seen five written, and that one doesn't seem unreasonable, but somebody might present a reason why it was unreasonable.

I think we'd want to be careful, or at least not have it so that people who could never get elected were on it. All you have to do is go on social media, there's stuff that gets said in the political discourse that would be better left unsaid and it's inappropriate by almost any standards. If something provided ready access to seats in Parliament for an opinion that could never get elected in any one district anywhere in the country, it would be problematic. Maybe you'd have to get a couple of seats on your own merit to get add-on seats. I don't know. I think there are ways to put that in. I think some countries in Europe have a problem, in that they get some pretty, to put it mildly, adamantly anti-immigrant parties, bordering on a lot worse, that end up with seats because of the structure.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

In your comments, you talk a little bit about Newfoundland and Labrador having one of or maybe the lowest voter turnout in terms of a provincial election. Have you given any thought to the concepts of mandatory voting or obligatory voting? What are your thoughts on whether that's a direction we should be thinking about or whether that's the wrong road to go down?

6:35 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

Let me say this about that. I've thought about it. We haven't taken a position as a caucus or anything or as a party here. I would personally prefer if there were something in that direction, that it be done on the strength of incentives as opposed to penalties. Whether it's, I don't know what it would be, but a pat on the back for voting not a penalty for not voting. It's obviously desirable to get more...and I'm not in principle opposed to the notion of having a requirement to vote. I'm not sure how it would be enforced or implemented.

It's not healthy when you have, I think we had—if memory serves me—57% or some figure like that vote in the 2011 election. That's not a very impressive number.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

A few other provinces, British Columbia and Ontario, have had citizens' assemblies in the past for reviews of electoral systems and to make recommendations. Has Newfoundland and Labrador had any in-depth studies done by citizen groups or by any kind of organization in terms of electoral reform?

6:35 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

Not that I know of. In fact, if there's been any debate on that subject in this province, it has been pretty minimal. There hasn't been a lot of conversation about it.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Does there seem to be a lot of conversation in general on electoral reform in the province right now? We've heard numbers that very few people are paying attention right now. Do you find that here in Newfoundland and Labrador there is a lot of interest in electoral reform, or are people generally tuned out at this point?

6:35 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

I don't think people are seized with it at the moment. Nobody has really championed it either. I think that's an issue that is more of a leadership issue than something that people are going to get.... That's why I'm not sold at all on a referendum on that. I took the time to read through that material about what happens in a number of countries and tried to at least grasp the basic guts of each of the types of systems. It's a fairly heavy slog. To the general public, it's probably more than they want to commit to. If you have a referendum, they don't really have a detailed understanding, so I'm not sold on the referendum idea.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Cullen.

6:35 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. McCurdy, for being here.

I'm glad that you brought a provincial perspective to this. It's appropriate and it starts to help us think about leadership. There have been a number of attempts provincially to bring in some sort of voter reform. There are some that point to national as the place where we have the leadership shown, and what provinces suddenly pick up.

I want to get to the question of that nut that's hard to crack, the low voter turnout, why people turn away.

My colleagues have heard me refer to it many times, so I'll do it again. After the Manitoba election, Elections Manitoba did a study, looked at non-voters, people who did not participate. They had a 57% turnout as well, I think, so don't feel too bad. Within that group, at least half of those voters had the feeling that the outcome was predetermined, that they lived in a certain type of riding. They had become rational about what is an irrational act, which is voting. They had rationally figured that they voted another way than their riding typically did. There's no rational act to go out and vote if it has no effect on the world. This is sometimes called “the wasted vote”. Tracking it back, some people have argued at this table that that's not a wasted vote, that's still an expression of.... You said you shared this similar experience of having voted many times and not seen your vote reflected in any kind of way. We're just looking for motivations for people to participate in our democracy because we know what happens when people don't. We get degraded policy and more cynicism.

Can we make that connection for voters in Newfoundland, where they're going to feel like their vote is going to matter a bit more?

6:40 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

My gut feeling is that if the seats were a form of proportional representation, or whatever the detail was, then that would increase the turnout. I know I got, especially after our provincial election followed close on the heels of the federal election...and the overlap was painful for our party, because the two were jumbled up in people's minds.

6:40 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Yes.

6:40 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

I had people say they didn't know how this was going to go. People on the doorstep would say, “I'm not sure I'm going to bother voting”, or on election day they came up with cockamamie excuses not to, so I think that would help.

The first time I ever set foot in the gallery at the legislature here there were 39 people on the government side and three in opposition. It was a one-sided vote in that election, but it wasn't that one sided. We've had a tendency with only scattered exceptions to have lopsided legislatures, and in every case, I believe—and I didn't go over them all to say that with certainty—the seat distribution was even more lopsided than the distribution of votes by the electorate.

It makes it tough. You end up with not enough in opposition to have a dynamic legislature.

6:40 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

When I've been here before, there's a current of alienation—and I don't know if alienation is exactly the right word—about what's going on in the country sometimes by Newfoundlanders and whether the government in power is reflective of the Newfoundlander vote in the last election.

We've seen the famous ABC campaign that was run out of the premier's office for a while, and there were frustrations with certain negotiations and not feeling like Newfoundland's voice was at the table.

We've heard testimony about the importance of having each region represented not just in government, but also in opposition. That matters. Right now, we have a situation where there are no opposition MPs coming from Atlantic Canada. You wonder who Conservative voters in Atlantic Canada would go to if they had an issue where they just happen to disagree with the current Liberal Party, or the New Democratic Party, or the Green Party.

I'm wondering if a proportional system allows Newfoundland's feeling, or inclusion, or connection to the rest of the country, as well as their voice, to be landing both in opposition and government, and if that will help both in feelings, but also in policies that affect the island.

6:40 p.m.

Leader, Newfoundland and Labrador New Democratic Party

Earle McCurdy

I think that's very important. I think alienation is not too strong a word. Of course, it has been aided a bit by a tendency to pick a fight with Ottawa when in political trouble. We have in this province elevated that to a bit of an art form.

I think we have had several occasions when there have been seven out of seven Newfoundland and Labrador seats in one party. We had at least one other where it was six out of seven. The vote is never divided in that fashion.

I think it would be constructive. I think the current situation is just not healthy. There are 32 seats in Atlantic Canada, and not a single person from Atlantic Canada can rise in question period as an opposition member to raise a question about whatever is on the minds of Atlantic Canadians. That's not a healthy situation to me.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

We'll go now to Ms. May.