Electoral Reform Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have the opportunity, briefly, for your comments.

[Marie Burge]

Online voting is going to encourage a whole other sector of society to get involved in voting, but we have to also see that there are people who don't have access. In P.E.I. we have people who don't have access to the Internet, and I'm sure that's the case in a lot of parts of Canada, as well.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That would be an issue then as well. What are your thoughts about security issues or anything in that regard, as well as for online voting?

[Marie Burge]

We haven't heard that discussed that much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay, we'll have to move on now.

Let's move on to Mr. DeCourcey.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you everyone for being here this afternoon.

Ms. Carroll, you're at least the third person who has presented to the committee representing disability advocacy groups. We had one presentation in Winnipeg, and one in Toronto, and both those groups and the witnesses who presented on behalf of those groups did not come forth with a preferred voting system. The issues were more around accessibility to the ballot.

I wonder if you can direct us to any international evidence that you have that demonstrates how persons living with a disability perform better as far as their election to office in different countries who operate under different systems goes.

[Marcia Carroll]

I don't have that type of research. I have some research around diversity in general, and certainly you can point to the New Zealand system, which is fairly new. We know the native population is now represented. The amount of people who are native in that country are now represented in their legislature, and they say that's due to the proportional representation system.

I represent a provincial organization, and we don't have the capacity to do a lot of research, but we talk to our folks all the time. These are the conversations that we have with them, and we hear over and over again that they feel disempowered in the current system, and that if we had a proportional system, then they would feel more empowered and more valued.

People with disabilities innately are innovative. They learn how to navigate societies every day and communities every day that are not designed for them, so they're innovative by nature. They try to be collaborative and negotiate all the time just to navigate their world. They bring those skills to the table, and they would rather be working within systems that value negotiation and working together as opposed to the adversarial system we have.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

That's excellent testimony, and something that I can appreciate and hope finds it way into the glut of recommendations that come down in our report.

It relates to the conversation that was ongoing earlier about how we support women in politics. Regardless of what electoral system is in operation, there needs to be a further commitment or mandate of the parties that incentivizes them or disciplines them should they not help fulfill certain quotas for women. I know we have touched on it a little, but do you see that sort of approach working with persons living with disabilities?

[Marcia Carroll]

I would lean toward an incentive model as opposed to a punishment model, if I can use that term, or a disincentive model. I started my presentation by saying that people with disabilities represent 10% of our population, and that certainly isn't what's representative in the House of Commons. We don't have 10% of our sitting members who are people living with disabilities.

Ideally we would, and ideally we would have 50% representation of women. I don't know if it's the committee's mandate. As a country, and particularly as a country with the values that Canada has, and to honour our diversity, we need to find a way to engage people and to have that plurality of representation in our House.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

It may not be directly within our mandate, but we certainly have the purview to express what we've heard. We've heard compelling testimony from people representing the disability community. I expect that will find some footing in the report. I think that's all I have to contribute right now.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. DeCourcey.

Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Carroll, I just want to revisit the exchange you had with Ms. Romanado.

It made me remember a story going back to my parents when I decided to join the NDP and get started on a long road. My parents come from the Liberal end of the spectrum. I remember their initial reaction was, “Oh, well, that's all well and good, but you might want to think about that in later years because it's not really going to be a path of success.” I remember saying to my parents, “It's not about winning or losing, it's about finding a party that aligns with my values.”

I think every constituent can go into an MP's office and get help. I know this because I used to be a constituency assistant. That's kind of separate from the policy work we do in Ottawa. For example, a New Democrat living in rural Alberta will get help from a Conservative MP, but that person's values will not be reflected in Parliament by that MP's work. It's similar to a Conservative here in Atlantic Canada.

When you said you had a very strong disagreement on that point, is that really what you were alluding to? Would you like to expand on that?

[Marcia Carroll]

What you talked about in terms of your history is very much an experience that I've had in my own family. I think all Islanders are pretty much.... You can say their last name, and we think we know how you vote because of your family of origin.

I come from a very political family, so if I chose to run for a party that wasn't Conservative or Liberal, I probably would have gotten the same feedback from my parents as you did. I'm glad that you followed your values and became successful in your path.

What I was really trying to say is, and I apologize if I came across too strongly, I really believe that if I were to sit in front of an MP who wasn't of the party that I was known to vote for—or people thought I voted for because, like I say, people assume that in P.E.I.—I still think that MP would try to help me to the best of their ability.

I don't know that I, as an individual, would reach out to that person because of the values they hold. Maybe that barrier is on me and not on the elected official. We hear the stories over and over again that they went to see the MP and, because of their political party of origin, if I can use that language, they felt their voice wasn't being heard.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Just continuing, I would like to hear feedback from all three of you.

On our first day of the Atlantic tour in Halifax, we heard from Professor James Bickerton. He had this quote about institutional changes to behaviour. Yes, there are ways that political parties can make themselves more accessible to reflect the diversity that is Canada, but it seems to me that a common point of origin is, if we can fix the voting system that affects all the parties instead of trying to get them individually to change, that might be an easier route. I'd love to hear your feedback on that particular quote.

[Marie Burge]

That was part of what I meant when I talked about parties. A well-functioning system that is proportional is going to make more demands on parties than anything else you've ever had. Parties will have to change their model of how they represent people, who they represent, and how they present themselves to the public.

When I watch and participate in electoral campaigns, I don't see much difference among the four parties as they're running, as far as their electoral tactics or campaign tactics go. They may be more subtle, but it's a game. It's a sports model or a business model. You have to have your brand and present your brand, and that type of thing.

I think that's where parties cause a lot of problems in the political system. The parties themselves cause some problems, because you almost have to buy into the system and get out and fight and try to talk about your opponent. It's quite a sick system. People say, “It ain't broke, so...”, but it is, really, right from the nomination system through the campaign to your positions as members of Parliament. You have a party frame around you that, in fact, has defined how you run your election campaigns.

I must say that the running of the election is not that different among all the parties. That's where a lot of growing up has to happen. Can we find parties that will learn, really learn, to collaborate? The example Jane gave from P.E.I. is a very touching example. Candidates from two different parties were working together in the campaign.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

In terms of trying to diminish the influence of parties, that seems to be the message I'm getting, to some extent. We've heard it elsewhere, too. In a PR system, such as mixed member, would party not become a little more prominent, because not only would you be voting for the local MP but you would also be voting purely for a party?

[Jane Ledwell]

The mixed member proportional model that's being looked at in Prince Edward Island is an open-list model. The party proposes the list, but voters select the candidate from that list as their first option. It's not a ranked list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Do they get two votes, one for the candidate and one for the party?

[Jane Ledwell]

No. They would get a vote for a district candidate under an FPTP model, the old-fashioned way. The vote for the candidate on the second part of the ballot, from the list, would be a vote for the party and the candidate combined.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay, thank you.

[Jane Ledwell]

They could vote for two different parties.

Just to clarify the point about parties, when we began our gender and diversity analysis of the systems available to island voters, one of the first questions that came up was whether any of these systems would reduce the role of political parties. That was a value held by one of the people in the focus group very strongly, and probably more than one. None of the systems on offer truly reduce the role of political parties.

I should also mention that I recently came from national meetings of the National Coalition of Provincial and Territorial Advisory Councils on the Status of Women. My colleague in the Northwest Territories, where they have consensus government, has found that their analysis over time has shown that the absence of parties is a barrier to women, because the parties are able to buffer some of the financial inequalities between men and women as individual candidates.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay, thanks very much for that clarification.

Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Chair, I just want to begin by thanking, in particular, Ms. Carroll for her work on disability issues. Certainly when I served on municipal council, the issue of accessibility was always one of our primary concerns, whether it was recreational facilities or government offices. I have a mother-in-law who has disability issues. She lost her leg to amputation many years ago. It's certainly an issue I have a personal connection with and is something I am concerned about.

I want to follow up on a question Mr. Richards asked about the idea of a compulsory vote. You mentioned that voter turnout in P.E.I. is relatively high. I want to ask specifically about the disabilities issue. We know that about 3.7 million Canadians have disabilities. It goes beyond accessibility issues, which we almost think of off the tops of our heads. We realize that there's a large variety of disability issues.

How might a compulsory ballot affect the people you represent, those with a disability, any type of disability?

[Marcia Carroll]

How would mandatory voting affect people with disabilities?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Exactly.