Electoral Reform Committee on Oct. 7th, 2016

[J.P. Lewis]

The point is more that Elections Canada can play.... I don't know what the budget figure would be, but it's just like civics education in the schools, which I know is a provincial responsibility, but it's a real mishmash out there.

If the CEO can be a champion, if Elections Canada can be a champion, even on a modest budget, just getting that mandate.... We know that there are institutions out there like Apathy is Boring, like CIVIX, like Samara, that are doing good research and are implementing good programs. We know that the partnerships are already there and that this community already exists, so I think it's just clarification around that.

I don't know these numbers off the top of my head. You could look at other countries, maybe Australia, to find what number they put behind their programs.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I have a couple of points on what you've said. There was a woman who joined us in Montreal. She was a witness, part of our panel, from Apathy is Boring. I spoke with her after about funding sources, and they didn't seem to have a secure source of funding. It's very much chasing funding all the time, which many NGOs end up doing. I imagine, with some of the other organizations you've mentioned, that's probably the case as well.

[J.P. Lewis]

I've talked a lot about the tuned-out aspect, if we're focusing on young voters. We might laugh at photos of Puff Daddy being involved in voter turnout.... I'm dating myself.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Some of us will nod knowingly.

[J.P. Lewis]

He goes by Diddy, too, I think. I don't know what he's called right now.

Anyway, sometimes you need these more hip groups like Apathy is Boring. They don't do it anymore, I don't think, but when MuchMusic was more of a television station, I think Chrétien was interviewed. I don't know if it was by Erica Ehm. It may sometimes be pandering, but I think it can make a difference.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

The other point I was going to make is that we've talked to some other countries that have different voting systems, some that changed different systems from election to election, municipal to federal, and those kinds of things. In a couple of cases we talked about budgets, and it didn't seem like any of them had really assigned a lot of money to the why piece of it as opposed to the how. It made me wonder if it's just assumed that, somehow organically, voters will learn the why piece of it.

[J.P. Lewis]

I know. Again, when I was looking through previous testimony, I know that Nelson Wiseman from the University of Toronto said the parties and media play a role to educate. I'm sure you're finding, as you're travelling the country and in Ottawa, that some people supporting a system might not be able simply to explain to you how it works and what the strengths and weaknesses are. They'll probably pick up on what strengths are, if they like it, and the weaknesses, if they don't. Again, maybe some non-governmental agencies are falling on the strengths and not giving a balanced approach.

Definitely, if you have Elections Canada in the leading role, and then other outside groups partner with them, you'd think you would capture that independent spirit.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I appreciate your thoughts on this. You had some good insight and thoughts on youth engagement as well, so thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Professor Lewis, I also want to follow up on what Mr. DeCourcey was talking about earlier, the falling rate of participation among so-called western democracies. There is one country, though, that regularly bucks the trend, and that is Australia, which regularly gets low- to mid-nineties in turnout because they have mandatory voting.

Yesterday in Charlottetown we heard witness testimony from a citizen of Australia, Ms. Anna Keenan. She's now living in Canada. Her perspective on mandatory voting was illuminating for us, because her explanation of Australian political culture was that mandatory voting is not really a subject in itself. Everyone just sees that as a regular duty. You just show up at the polls and you do your thing. I lived in Australia in 2013 when they were having their federal election. I can remember talking to local Australians, members of my wife's family, and it's just not really a big issue. You just show up at the poll and do your thing.

One interesting thing that Ms. Keenan mentioned to us was that it forced political parties in Australia to step out of their comfort zones. Here in Canada, it's all about polling the votes. If you look at individual ridings, parties have their strongholds in different areas of the riding. They don't really have to reach beyond that.

I'm just wondering about your views on mandatory voting. I'd like to hear your feedback on that.

[J.P. Lewis]

I think that if you know enough, it almost becomes self-mandatory. That is, if you fill those information gaps, if you deal with the knowledge levels...because we know that people with higher levels of education are voting more often. I guess I may be agnostic about mandatory voting. I come back to this issue. Would mandatory voting address some of the problems, as Mr. DeCourcey said, in the ecosystem if people are, say, just voting to avoid a fine? There could be research out there on this. When jurisdictions introduce mandatory voting, does it appear that people are becoming more engaged and more knowledgeable? I don't know if there are Australian election studies to address that.

I think the policy answer could be for Elections Canada to play a greater role through resources that might address policy gaps at the provincial level, where you have provincial governments and departments of education that may be struggling with implementing civics programs at whatever grade level; and have an independent, non-partisan voice.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Moving on to something different, I wanted to look at the comments that Mr. Mayrand made about consensus. Look at the structure of this committee. This is a very special thing you see here. I hope the audience realizes that. Our traditional committees are 10 members, dominated by the governing party. Here, we've set something up that is relatively in proportion to what each party received in the election. When you look at Mr. Mayrand talking about consensus, what does that word mean to you as we are deliberating this issue?

[J.P. Lewis]

I guess it means comfort with the final decision and the route that gets you to that final decision. Maybe it means acceptance by those outside of the group that made the decision, and understanding. That bolsters the legitimacy of the decision that was made.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Quickly, because five minutes does go very quickly, I'll go to the subject of referendums and plebiscites. We heard interesting testimony yesterday in Charlottetown about their efforts. First, there was the question about a decade ago as to whether they would stick with first past the post or go to mixed member proportional. That was taken down. Now they're moving to a ballot, a plebiscite, where the choices are listed. What is your opinion of a “yes or no” type of question versus one that actually asks citizens to find out a little bit more about each system?

[J.P. Lewis]

I think there's value in any question that would compel citizens to seek out that information. It's just a matter of whether they will, whether the information is out there, and whether it's information that is balanced in terms of not just presenting it in a way that, as I said earlier, only highlights the strengths or the weaknesses.

When I'm trying to demonstrate to my students the relationship that Canadians have with our institutions, I always mention the success that Stephen Harper had in arguing for prorogation in 2008, and the fact that he won the argument that you need elections to change governments.

Anyone who understands responsible government knows that you can change governments without an election, but it was a very successful political argument he made, and the idea was roundly defeated. I always think about that. Whether it's electoral reform, the Senate, or the House, Canadians have a certain relationship with their institutions. Part of it, I think, is the small c conservative. The status quo is, a lot of times, picked rather than changed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Rayes, over to you.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Good afternoon.

I have a few questions, and I'd like you to answer using a scale of one to 10, where one means you completely disagree and 10 means you completely agree. I'm going to try to do it quickly. I don't necessarily want any comments; I think we've pretty much covered the topic already.

On a scale of one to 10, what would you rate your support for a national civic education program for schools, including proper funding?

[J.P. Lewis]

I guess I'm not giving you a number because I respect the responsibilities laid out in the Constitution. Maybe I'll take a five down the middle because I think the federal government does play a role in other provincial jurisdictions, and it could play a role in this as well. Maybe I'll say five.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

What about you, Mr. Elbert?

[Leonid Elbert]

I would say 10. During my last year of school, I took part in a program for two hours a week. I learned about the voting system and the formulas used to determine the party that would form the government and the party that would form the opposition. Of course, I would like every student to have that same opportunity.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I am really looking for just a number between one and 10, where one means you completely disagree, 10 means you completely agree, and five means you're split. I would ask that you not say any more than that, as I have a number of questions.

[Leonid Elbert]

My answer is 10.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Great.

What about mandatory voting?

[J.P. Lewis]

Five.

[Leonid Elbert]

Zero.