Evidence of meeting #36 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cepa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health
From Health, where there are questions about health benefits, health consequences, we are regularly called upon to provide our opinion. We have trouble neither in offering to provide it nor in being asked for it. It happens quite frequently.
4:35 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Environmental Law Association
Another mechanism, which has been suggested by Toronto's medical officer of health in a report addressing children's health as well as been supported by my organization, is the notion of an overarching mandate and cross-departmental commitment to ensuring children's health protection across all of the areas where regulated activities can have an effect on children's health. It's a way of focusing attention and requiring coordinated activity across multiple departments, because issues of children's health will arise across multiple departments, in the examples you give and in others.
If it's at that level of commitment, there's money for it, there's coordination, and it gets done.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Thank you, Mr. Vellacott.
We'll now go to the second round, which is five minutes.
I understand you're going to share your time, Mr. MacAulay and Mr. Ignatieff. Go ahead, Mr. MacAulay.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to the witnesses.
Mr. Glover, you'll have to approve new chemicals, for example in the agricultural sector when they come onto the market. That's handled, of course, with great confidence. I believe you indicated that previously.
And that is correct, isn't it?
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
There are a lot of dollars that go into developing these things.
Ms. Cooper or anybody, between Health Canada and Environment Canada, is there good cooperation? Is the overlap causing a problem? You referred to the mercury thermometers falling through the cracks and to things that are not happening. Is that because of overlap? Is it because of not enough clout? What is the problem that these things are happening? Is there a problem with the two departments?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Environmental Law Association
You started out talking about agricultural pesticides, and that issue is a little different.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
It is totally different. I just wanted to make that clear. Having dealt with it all my life, I think it's something that's very important. I want you to indicate if the cooperation with Health Canada and Environment Canada has been what you want. Has the overlap been a problem? Is there a problem in that area?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Environmental Law Association
My colleagues, who worked for the last six years on the DSL categorization exercise, were often frustrated with the lack of coordination between the two departments. I think it's improving, but I need to defer to my colleagues, who have been involved in the deep details of that more so than I'm able to convey to you today. We could certainly do more in writing on that for you. I just don't feel I can respond in the way that would do it justice, but Kapil was involved in it in more detail and I think he should address it.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health
The departments would acknowledge that historically this is a problem we've heard a great deal of comment on. In recent years, they have moved quite extensively in this area, to the point where stakeholder engagements are now coordinated between the two departments and are often run jointly by the two departments. There will be a morning session on the environment and an afternoon session on health, so we're not going to the same people one week after the other. We get them into the same city, the same hotel room, to talk about the issues in an integrated fashion. Cynthia and I toured the country together in trying to prepare for this. I understand that it's not my view that you care about, it's the stakeholders' views. I just want to report that we have heard of those problems and have been acting on them.
4:35 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Environmental Law Association
I would say the situation has improved.
Go ahead, Kapil.
4:35 p.m.
Director, Health and Environment, PollutionWatch
Having followed the categorization process, we have seen departments learn to work together better. They had a joint announcement. That was a victory, I think. The example that I gave before was medical devices and consumer products. We're unclear, on the outside, as to what the power and balance or the difficulties are within sections of a department like Health Canada, with one part of the department having the responsibility and not the other, but I think that's something that needs to be dealt with at the ministerial level.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
On the regulatory burden on industry itself, is there much of an effort in government to make sure that burden can be lessened on industry with the regulations as they come on?
4:40 p.m.
Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health
The government has been fairly clear that we're expecting industry to share with us data that they have in their possession, that reverse onus concept. If they do that, they will be acknowledged for the best practices they use that will inform regulation. The extent to which the plan rewards industry is dependent upon the level with which they cooperate.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE
You just deal with the information they provide, and if it's not proper information, then it's dealt with in another manner.
4:40 p.m.
Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health
If it's not sufficient information to help satisfy the ministers about precaution, as the witnesses have said, then in all likelihood the ministers will move forward on a precautionary basis, given that industry has not been able to demonstrate that they're using the substance in a way that doesn't harm the environment or doesn't harm human health.
4:40 p.m.
Director, Health and Environment, PollutionWatch
In terms of confidentiality, we have in the past proposed a separation between business-confidential information and test data. What is happening with the new substances notification program is that there is just not enough transparency for us to be able to say whether they're doing a good job or making precautionary decisions and that test data needs to be public.
4:40 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Environmental Law Association
We will be suggesting amendments to that effect. They will be comparable to the ones that were put in the Pest Control Products Act. There's a precedent already in terms of what has already been done in the law, to make a distinction between CBI and confidential test data and to make the availability of data more transparent.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Mr. MacAulay, we're getting quite a bit over your time. You'll have another opportunity.
4:40 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Environmental Law Association
I'm not talking about getting access to CBI. I'm talking about the test data.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Earlier, Ms. Cooper talked to us about products with a higher lead content than approved under the CEPA. Theoretically, the amount of lead in a product should not exceed 90 parts per million. In reality, this threshold is exceeded by several million parts, a none too insignificant amount. Furthermore, lead can be found in products designed for children.
How do manufacturers manage to get around the rules which, in principle, were designed to prevent problems like this from occurring?