Environment Committee on Jan. 31st, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you.

Members, as you know, we end at 5:30. We have two more people who have asked to speak, Mr. Lussier and Mr. Rota. Then we have a comment that Mr. Warawa would like to make, and Mr. McGuinty wants to advise us of the notice of motion for his item for next Monday. I would ask you to be as brief as you can. If a question has been asked, please move on. We'll do this as quickly as we can so that we can live by our 5:30 timeline.

Mr. Rota.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the issues discussed earlier—I'll go through it and tell you what I feel of it, and the answer should be very brief—is about moving from an annual report to four reports. I share the same concerns that were spoken earlier, that it may be buried in four small slices, as opposed to having one major report, as was discussed or presented in September. It brought a lot of importance to a very pertinent issue.

A comment you made earlier was to confirm that if, as the main consumer of that report, this committee were to request that report, it was not a problem.

I just want to confirm that.

[Sheila Fraser]

It is absolutely not.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Can you assure us that the document would be delivered in September, as expected, or is there some confusion within the department and would there would be some kind of delay?

[Sheila Fraser]

Our plans for the coming year are that we will table the report, the statutory work, in October. That's the sustainable development strategies and petitions.

We have moved the other work, which is what we call the follow-up work, to February, because that is normally the time we produce what we call a status report. That would be a report strictly devoted to follow-up on environmental and sustainable development audits that we have done in the past, and it will fall in February.

After that, if the committee gives us an indication of their preference on reporting, be it one report or two reports, and the timing of it, we will obviously follow your wishes.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Very good.

According to the job description listed on the Auditor General's website, the environment commissioner is responsible for “[e]ncouraging the government to be more accountable for greening its policies, operations, and programs”, and this “is a key to the Commissioner's mandate”.

Discussed earlier was advocacy and an auditor's functions. When I think of an auditor, it is as someone who looks at what was done in the past, audits it—looks at it—and reports on it. The Auditor General Act says, in section 21.1:

(h) respect for nature and the needs of future generations.

Do we have a conflict within the Auditor General's department, whereby we have basically someone who does audits...? I respect what an audit does; it points out mistakes we've made in the past. But an advocate will talk about the future and suggest policies and where we should go in the future, as opposed to just relating to past experience.

Maybe you can comment on that.

[Sheila Fraser]

The reference you're making, 21.1 in our act, deals with the whole question of the sustainable development monitoring and reporting. The sustainable development strategies were introduced into the legislation at the same time as the creation of the commissioner. It indicates here that this is the definition of sustainable development; this is not the definition of what the commissioner will do. The commissioner audits the sustainable development strategies of departments, which are tabled every three years. We will be auditing the new sustainable development strategies that have just been released, and we will be reporting on that in the fall.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

So you're saying that defines sustainable development and you audit it.

I'm trying to make the connection--

[Sheila Fraser]

We audit the strategies of the departments.

First of all, we look at how they actually developed the strategy and assess how they developed that. Then we will say, “You have this strategy, and you have committed to doing X. Have you actually done it? Do you have a plan in place to do it?” But we do not comment on whether they should include consideration of this element or that element in their strategy. That would be going into the policy--future-oriented stuff--which we cannot do.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Very good.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Rota.

We now have two statements, I believe. I don't believe either of them....

Sorry, Mr. Lussier, I apologize.

Mr. Lussier.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I have three brief questions to ask, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fraser, who appoints the 10 or 15 members of the advisory committee?

[Sheila Fraser]

There are two committees: the Panel of Senior Advisors, the members of which are appointed by the Auditor General, and the Panel of Environmental Advisors, whose members are appointed by the Commissioner, on consultation with the Auditor General.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Is the job description of the Commissioner of the Environment very clear on what the Commissioner must do with the report when it is tabled? Is it the Commissioner's role to distribute it, to give press conferences, to convene members to explain the issue? Is that the Commissioner's role?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, and that will continue. The Commissioner's responsibility is to be the main spokesperson for the report to the parliamentary committees, at conferences, and so on. Obviously, members of the Commissioner's team sometimes also have a role to play and may attend various conferences and so on.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

You're now looking for a new commissioner. Who will do the description of the evaluation grid for the new commissioner?

[Sheila Fraser]

The incumbent of that position is appointed by the Auditor General. As I indicated, in the review process, we'd also definitely like to obtain the opinions of parliamentarians and other persons regarding the qualifications that a commissioner must have, after which we'll prepare the description of the evaluation grid.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

So the profile hasn't yet been developed?

[Sheila Fraser]

A profile currently exists, but this would be the opportunity to see again whether or not changes are necessary.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you.

Mr. McGuinty, I understand you want to speak briefly to your notice of motion.

I will just advise members that this is not debate on this motion. This motion will be put next Monday. This will just be some advice for the committee.

Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser. I believe you've answered our questions, and there will be, I'm sure, some follow-up from us.

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

As I mentioned in this review, we would like to meet with parliamentarians, so I hope you will share your opinions with us. There will be members of my staff and others--we have to see if it will perhaps be combined with outside people as well--who will be contacting you to meet you over the coming months.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you very much.

I'm sure that once we're finished the CEPA review there will be room for us to discuss this much further and give you some guidance. I'm sure the committee members would like to do that.

Thank you very much for appearing.

Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for the indulgence of the committee.

I'd like to very quickly speak to a notice of motion, which I hope we can debate Monday, Mr. Chair. It speaks to the question of making the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development a fully independent officer of Parliament, reporting directly to Parliament. It clearly affirms and appropriately circumscribes the duty of that office, of that commissioner, which would include the role of advocacy on environmental and sustainable development issues, making sure that this office was properly funded at arm's length and had the right kind of staff and auditing function without government influence, and so on.

I raise this, Mr. Chair, because of the original intent that created this position. It flowed from the 1992 Earth Summit at which governments of that time—Prime Minister Mulroney's government—signed the Rio Declaration. One of the undertakings at the time by states that signed was to do two things: to strengthen and create a council for sustainable development in their respective countries—in our case, Prime Minister Mulroney created the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy—and to strengthen the follow-up and monitoring of.... There is no debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Be brief, Mr. McGuinty. You'll get an opportunity on Monday.