Environment Committee on Jan. 31st, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

It's not a debate. It's simply to say historically that the second thing we committed to do as a nation was to create an office like that of the commissioner. It was supposed to have been independent. I wanted simply to give notice that we can speak about this in the next meeting. I really believe this gives us the opportunity to improve the situation. We can build on the existing commissioner's office and render it more fully independent from the Auditor General's office. The commissioner's office can pick up the kind of role that our colleagues from the Bloc spoke about moments ago concerning the advocacy responsibilities, which would go beyond moral suasion and public embarrassment. I think that would speak more directly to the spirit of the original intent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty. I think everyone has taken notice of that. We'll do some homework, and hopefully we can get through this and get on with the CEPA report as well on Monday. If everybody can do some work on this and have their opinions crisp, we will get on with it.

Mr. Warawa, you had a comment?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Yes. Thank you, Chair.

I'm sad to have to raise this issue, but it's clear to each of us that the contents of the discussion that took place yesterday during the in camera portion were leaked to the media immediately after the commissioner left the room and while the meeting was still going on. I believe this is a serious breach of our privileges as members of Parliament. I have 16 years of serving in government in an elected position, and if we cannot trust the confidence of an in camera meeting, it will cripple the ability of this committee to operate. There has to be trust. There has to be respect for confidential documents and confidential meetings.

I asked Ms. Fraser if she was aware of any member of this committee breaching the contents of the in camera portion of the meeting, revealing the information that she shared in confidence. She answered yes, that she made her announcement at three o'clock. She said she had received a document entitled...it was 12:58, I think; mine shows 12:59. It was already out. There was an article in The Globe and Mail under the name of Bill Curry as the reporter who reported in detail.

We have to be able to trust one another. I would first ask if somebody did leak the document, to share that with the committee at this time. That would be my first question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Does anyone have any comment on that?

I have talked to many members, and we all feel pretty much the same, that this is something that.... Certainly I wasn't pleased to get that phone call, and I know the commissioner wasn't either, but it happened. I trust it will never happen again. I don't know if someone wants to comment. I don't want to get into a great long discussion.

Mr. Vellacott.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Well, I would have to say that I was very nervous, because I could almost see and predict where this was heading when there were, right from the get-go, members of the opposition, Mr. McGuinty in particular, making a big issue about the media outside and questions for him, and he went on about this at length, and several times in fact. So my sense at that point was that this scenario could well develop, of something of a confidential meeting being leaked out, because there was all this lathering up about the media out there. And I thought, well, if it's a confidential meeting, with confidential documents, what does that matter? It's not really the issue we should be discussing at this point.

I'd like members of the opposition, the member I named, to think deeply in their hearts, do we want this kind of pattern occurring? I think it's a tremendous breach of what goes on here. It's a difficult circumstance as it is when we get in these committee meetings, but when we have people who are not holding things in confidence, it's a very unsettling and disturbing precedent for any member of this committee to do, and I don't appreciate it.

I did see members meeting with the media, off in huddles in corners. Mr. McGuinty was in fact with a particular named reporter. It left me a bit uneasy that that would occur within minutes of the meeting being over. Why are these confidential huddles going on when in fact this is a confidential meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Well, Mr. Vellacott, that's why I began the meeting with my comments. I know a number of other members have talked to me about it. Obviously it can happen again. It shouldn't have happened. I don't know exactly how it happened.

I would think the Auditor General would have certain doubts about appearing to give us a heads-up on a matter because it happened, but I'm not sure belabouring it much further than that is where we need to go.

Mr. McGuinty, you've been mentioned. Do you want to make a comment?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Well, only to say, Mr. Chair, that I think it's important in the future, if we're going to have an in camera meeting, that we should have the discussion as a committee first. If a witness approaches the committee, or, in terms of membership, you, or the clerk, or any individual member, it would be very important for us to have that discussion first.

I remain troubled by what happened yesterday, absolutely. I don't think that meeting should have been held in camera. I was very supportive of what our colleague from the NDP said about opening it up. I don't think there was any justification for holding it in camera in the first place, and I don't think we've come out of this meeting today with any further elucidation or illumination as to what actually has occurred here. That's what I think most of us are leaving with today. We don't exactly know what's happening. I don't know whether the commissioner has been fired. We asked whether she'd been fired and we were told she's not fired, but she's fired. She issued a statement saying she's fired.

So I think in the future we have to be extremely scrupulous in terms of our choice, as a committee, as to when things will be held in camera or not in camera. That's my reaction today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Obviously, I'm the one who made the decision when the Auditor General approached me and said, “I would like to give a heads-up in camera and it's regarding a position.” Obviously that was her intention, and I think that's what she did. Of course, by us going ahead, obviously it was in camera. Everyone was advised that it was in camera; it was in camera. I think everyone stayed in the room and agreed it was in camera, and obviously that confidence was broken. So that's the problem that cannot happen. If it's in camera, it's in camera; if it's not in camera, it's not.

I take your advice, obviously. I have fought that in camera thing for years. I don't like having meetings in camera. I wasn't elected in camera. I don't believe we should have those kinds of meetings. However, when the Auditor General came to me with that specific request, the clerk and I talked about it. She approached both of us. We talked about it, we brought that to the committee, and we carried on. I think that's the point that needs to be made, it has been made, and I really believe we can drop it at that point.

We do have time, but Mr. Vellacott, is this something new?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I have one quick follow-up comment or question. I understand and I hear the rationalizations of the member. His body language is very interesting.

So, David, I'll ask you directly, were you the one who leaked that document to the media yesterday? You inferred earlier in the meeting that you don't have your document. Is it because you passed it on to the media yesterday?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

What I would suggest, Mr. Vellacott, is this. Why don't you and Mr. McGuinty go for a cup of coffee and discuss this?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

As long as he buys. You're in government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

If you buy, he says he'll—

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Well, he could respond and get it on the record pretty quickly.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You have $27 million in the party. Take me out for a nice lunch and we'll have a chat.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Well, you could respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I really don't believe we're going to get anyplace on this, so I believe we should move on.

Mr. Warawa, you don't think we should move on.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Chair, the question was asked, and I would appreciate an answer. If not, I have concerns. Can there be confidence in secure documents going through this committee if we're not able to deal with this issue? It was very clear it was in camera. They were confidential documents, and that trust...it's a breach of Parliament, Mr. Chair, and that is a very serious issue. It's a breach of Parliament. It's a breach of confidence. For us now to say we have dealt with it...I don't believe we have. If the person who leaked that document....

If it's not dealt with appropriately, I believe it will happen again. We need to have an apology to this committee from the person who breached that or we need to make a motion to ask the clerk to do some research and report back to the committee on where that breach happened. If it was not from one of us, as elected people, then was it a staff member? There was a definite breach, and an apology needs to be made to this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Warawa, having just talked to the clerk briefly, a motion can be made. If it is passed, then a report can be done. It will go to the House. The Speaker ultimately is our boss, but I have heard his reports in the past when he said that committees are in control of what they do.

This has been a learning experience for all of us that obviously we can't have that sort of thing happening. It is certainly my opinion that we should simply move on.

Mr. McGuinty and Mr. Vellacott and Mr. Warawa may want to get together. Mr. McGuinty and I in the past have had disagreements and have sat down over a cup of coffee and solved the problem and moved on. To pursue this any further, certainly you can. You can make the motion and the committee can vote on it. If it's passed, then a report will be done and it will go to the House. If that's the will of the committee, obviously, you can overrule what I'm suggesting. My suggestion is that enough has been said about it.

Who had a comment? Was it you, Mr. Regan?

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee now adjourn, and if it is unnecessary to have a vote, I'd certainly accept that it be simply returned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Warawa really has the floor in that he has suggested a motion. If he wishes to make such a motion--

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

He didn't make a motion; I just made a motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

He sort of made a motion.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I don't think you can sort of make a motion, Mr. Chairman. You either make a motion or you don't. You can talk about it, but I've made a motion.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Chair, the comments I made were these. I asked for an apology from the person who leaked that document. We need to return confidence in the confidentiality and the trust in one another, that when we have confidential documents or a confidential meeting we can trust that each of us will respect that. Now that has been breached, and until the person apologizes to this committee, there is a possibility, in my mind, that it will happen again, and I will not feel comfortable going into another confidential, in camera meeting.

This committee deserves an apology, and if that person is not willing to make it--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Your motion then, Mr. Warawa.