Environment Committee on April 26th, 2007

[Jon Cammack]

Yes, our company has done those studies, many, many of them, and beyond those, we've taken the actual blood samples from animals—again, where a lot of these data are based—and studied the effects of DEHP at the very highest levels in the blood of these most sensitive animal species, rats and mice.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

That is not my question. I asked you if you have ever done a chemical analysis of human blood.

[Jon Cammack]

I have not, but my laboratories have.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Have you looked at several chemical analyses of human blood in which these three chemicals were detected? Do you have any analyses that prove that there is a low concentration of those chemicals in human blood?

[Jon Cammack]

Absolutely, no question. And this is published, publicly available data.

DEHP, especially in blood component storage containers, does migrate from the material into the blood. So yes, we've seen that. In fact, current blood banking would not be possible without DEHP plasticized PVC, because that chemical actually has a protective effect on the red blood cell.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Have you ever seen analyses of the blood of newborns, where those chemicals are present?

[Jon Cammack]

My laboratories haven't done that because Baxter doesn't make those products, but those data are published. There is scientific literature that publishes that.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

When DEHP is detected in the blood along with other chemicals, has anyone ever wondered if one chemical may have an effect on another?

[Jon Cammack]

I think you are asking if there is migration of a phthalate into the blood, what effect that has on the patient. Yes—

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

If one chemical is mixed with another that is also in the blood, for example BPC and another chemical of some kind, is the combined effect of those two or three chemicals analyzed? Is the combined effect of the three chemicals measured?

[Jon Cammack]

I'm not sure I totally understand the question, but for a blood bag for current blood banking, the material that's used is DEHP-plasticized PVC. There aren't other phthalates used in those blood bags, so it would be the DEHP, not other chemicals.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Ms. Axmith, do you have any data that shows that DEHP in the blood has an effect when it is combined with other chemicals also contained within human blood?

We heard from experts who tabled studies on human blood that contained traces of 26 different chemicals.

Has your group undertaken any studies that consider the effect of DEHP when it is combined with other chemicals?

[Marion Axmith]

I defer to the scientists and the toxicologists on this, but my understanding, and Marian Stanley can explain further, is that phthalates are not retained in the body. They pass through the body. So if a patient, an infant, a child, an adult, were treated with a device containing DEHP, that substance might go into their body, yes, but it would not be retained in the body. It would be expelled within a certain time period.

I ask Marian to comment on that.

[Marian Stanley]

Sure. What I'd like to comment on is that what we do know is that from the very extensive Centers for Disease Control biomonitoring program, they have now analyzed well over 100 compounds in both human blood and urine. The preamble to their report states that the presence of a compound does not necessarily mean a diseased state.

The phthalates panel has looked at the action of phthalates as a possible adjuvant to causing allergic reactions. We know that it doesn't have that effect in animals. We know that the national toxicology program has done some work with two phthalates and has found them to be not additive, so there is evidence there to show that phthalates don't interact with other compounds and that they're not additive together.

Additionally, as Marion Axsmith pointed out, they have about a 24-hour transit time in the body and then they are expelled in the urine.

[Jon Cammack]

Could I make a comment?

I think I understand your question now, so yes, there are constituents of a material that will extract into blood or any kind of solution that a material touches. That's not a unique feature of PVC DEHP. If I had a non-PVC material and put water in it, or blood or anything else, there are going to be chemicals and constituents of this material that come out into solutions. That is a non-unique feature of PVC and DEHP. One of the very powerful things about PVC materials is that they have not only a tremendous amount of study in animals looking at the safety, but there are human clinical data with no evidence of adverse effects. So whether this is a non-PVC material, glass or whatever, in contact with a solution, positively, scientifically, there are things that are coming out of this, going into solution and going into your body.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I am disturbed by Ms. Axmith's comments. She said that the chemical remains in human blood for only 24 hours. Therefore, if I do a blood analysis and I find DEHP in that blood, that means that I was in contact with that chemical only 24 hours ago. It's incredible that this chemical was found in the blood of 26 patients tested. That means that we are constantly in contact with that chemical. We're told that it is eliminated quickly, that there is no cumulative effect and there is no reaction between chemicals in the blood. That's what I'm hearing.

[Jon Cammack]

That's a great question. Different chemicals are handled differently by the body, but right now there is no science that says DEHP or another phthalate from some medical therapy are interacting together and producing a synergistic effect. I think that's what you're asking. There is no data that says that.

There's no data that says any chemical coming from any material in a medical therapy is interacting with other chemicals and producing more pronounced effects than you would get with the individual chemical. Again, that isn't a unique feature of PVC and DEHP. That's how all medical products act when they're in contact with the body.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Lussier.

Mr. Cullen, please.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The first question I have is for Ms. Axmith. Regarding the chemicals that are manufactured, the ones that are in our manufacturing process, do any of them cause cancer? Has there ever been a link? Is it possible for a manufactured chemical to cause cancer in humans?

[Marion Axmith]

That depends on the chemical.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

So yes, in some cases?

[Marion Axmith]

Possibly, in some cases.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But possibly not ever? Is it possible that no chemicals—

[Marion Axmith]

No, possibly, in some cases, and not—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I don't know why this is a hard question to answer. Mr. Cammack is nodding, so maybe I'll ask him.

Do chemicals that are manufactured cause cancer?