Environment Committee on June 14th, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm anxious for the vote. Could we call the vote?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

The clerk has clarified for me that a video conference is impossible at this point in time. A teleconference, possibly, if they're available.... We could certainly attempt to do that, but we won't know until we try, and we aren't going to try until we have a motion voted on.

Mr. Warawa

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Chair, you keep recognizing me when I'm about to take a bite....

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Sorry, wrong order. Finish your mouthful.

Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I'll take your spot while you finish your meal.

Mr. Chair, I haven't said anything in this whole debate, but this has been fascinating in terms of how this happens, and I wonder how we could run a business like this in Canada. It seems strange. Here we are with 27 minutes to go in this time allotted and we have these wonderful gentlemen who have been sitting here for an hour and a half--and I'm sure you've found this conversation very intriguing, as much as I have.

[A voice]

Bet they had other stuff to do.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Yes, and we don't have anything else to do either.

The concern I have is...let's go back to the last meeting we had. Here we were in a meeting where we funnelled two sets of witnesses through. We had a two-minute question period and then we had a one-minute question period, and when I look at the validity of what we're going to be talking about, whether we're talking with these witnesses here today, Mr. Chair, or whether we're even able to get in contact with the people through teleconference or able to find phone numbers for them.... You look at a G-8 meeting, which was months and months and months in the planning, with tremendous execution issues and a tremendous number of lessons learned, and here we are going to try to bundle this all up in 25 minutes.

We're going to have some kind of testimony, and we'll probably allow them each 10 minutes to discuss it, and then we're going to have a concept where we're going to talk about the G-8 in a matter of 20 minutes. Mr. Chair, anybody on this committee I think would be irresponsible to think we would be able to come in with a qualified opinion on that issue in that period of time. I don't understand why we would even be entertaining that at this point in time, and that's why this motion is completely irresponsible for us to do as parliamentarians. I think what we're looking for here is quite frankly...Mr. McGuinty is looking for a one-minute sound bite that he can ask in question period this afternoon, and I think that's virtually what it is.

[A voice]

Absolutely.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

So, Mr. Chair, I think this is an irresponsible motion and I can't support it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I think the record does show that I asked, through you, of Mr. McGuinty if he would share.... The motion calls for us to immediately hear from these two named witnesses, Mr. Bramley and Mr. Jaccard, and I asked Mr. McGuinty if they were available to immediately become witnesses and testify. So are they standing by? He did not answer that and called for the question.

I'd like to ask him another question, give him another opportunity, and maybe he would show the committee the courtesy of answering that first question also. I'm going to ask Mr. McGuinty, through you, why these specific two people? Why Matthew Bramley specifically? Why are you asking for Matthew Bramley? Hopefully I can get an answer.

He doesn't want to answer. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

That's correct.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. McGuinty is continuing to call for the vote without answering the questions. That's an unhealthy pattern. Were these two witnesses at G-8 plus five? The motion is to do a post-G-8 plus five. Were these two witnesses at G-8 so that they can actually give us a post-G-8 plus five? Were they there? And the response from Mr. McGuinty is...?

[A voice]

“Call the vote”.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

“Call the vote“.

I have one more question. Did Mr. Bramley help draft the Liberal plan? What connection is Mr. Bramley to the Liberal Party? Is there any connection? And the answer is...?

[A voice]

“Call the vote”.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

“Call the vote”.

The record clearly shows, Chair, that we have an opposition, particularly Liberals, who do not want to hear the facts. As Mr. Allen said a moment ago, they appear to be looking for a sound bite and not interested in the environment.

Chair, Canadians want this committee to function. They want it to look at solutions to cleaning up the environment. I don't want to look back and start blaming who created the environmental mess, Chair, but the reality is that Canadians want action, they want solutions. That's what I would like to do.

Chair, there were numerous times in this committee, and also in the House, where I encouraged the whips to encourage their members to talk about solutions. I heard from the Bloc that, yes, they were very interested in the committee talking about solutions. The NDP wouldn't answer and the Liberals wouldn't answer.

I really believe the NDP supports looking at solutions, Chair, but I don't believe that anymore with the Liberals. They don't want to look at solutions. They want optics. And Chair, actually that is what the environment commissioner said in one of her reports, that there are a lot of big announcements and a lot of confetti, but they simply don't get it done. Chair, that's not what Canadians want. They want us moving forward, they want us dealing with solutions, and we have witnesses here today to talk about smog.

What we have on the table is a vicious attack against your integrity, against your character, and it's a disappointing day. I continue to encourage the members: please, let's work on solutions and quit the silly political games. This is gutter politics at its worst, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have two small things to say, and then we can, I hope, proceed to the vote.

One is that this has been the enactment of a self-fulfilling prophecy on behalf of the government, talking about time being wasted as they go into long speeches quoting extensively from text.

The second is, in terms of the responsibility of this motion, if the government is unable to see the option of booking another meeting this afternoon as a possible solution, then no doubt their creativity is lacking in dealing with the issue of climate change. Of course, we can have these witnesses gathered. Of course, the committee has the power to actually hear this issue today. If they continue to persist that the only option is the one that's dead centre in front of them, I definitely regret the idea of them trying to handle a complicated issue like climate change. Let's move on and get it done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Is there any other debate?

We're going to vote then. So everyone knows exactly what we're doing, we're voting on the first part of that motion, ending at “if necessary and”. That would be the first motion.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We can now excuse our witnesses.

I'm sure you enjoyed the last hour and a half as much as I have. I apologize, and hopefully we'll have an opportunity to hear you again. Thank you.

Basically, the motion says that we have them immediately. Does the committee wish us to call these two people and get them on the telephone? That's all that's available. Does someone have the phone numbers for these two?

Yes, Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

On a point of order, we have the second motion that needs to be dealt with now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We could at least get the clerk working on the phone numbers.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Again, on a point of order, procedurally we now have to deal with the second motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

The second motion, yes.

Mr. Warawa, what's going to happen is that I have instructed the clerk to get hold of the phone numbers. He'll report back to us if they're available. I mean, we are talking about a short time.

Let's go on to the second motion. That is now open for debate.

Mr. Cullen.