Environment Committee on June 19th, 2007

[David Mulroney]

My negotiating mandate and my policy mandate flow from Canada's plan, which, as I indicated earlier, sets a 2006 target of 60% to 70% reductions by 2050, which is absolutely consistent with the objective of having emissions on a 1990 basis by 2050.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You've talked about this agreement coming out as an accord. That is how you referred to it. Is it binding or non-binding upon the signatories to the press statements and to the actual official statements? Is it binding upon the countries?

[David Mulroney]

The G8 commitments are commitments by leaders, and as such, when leaders say they're going to do something, they follow through. It's not a legal document, but it is a national commitment.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We've heard such commitments before from this government, and they're not necessarily worth the paper or the audio capture.

The question I keep running back to is the official government policy, the one that you are mandated to negotiate upon. It talks a lot about potential economic harm to Canada's economy if we go too far, if we restrict greenhouse gases too much. Was it part of your negotiating package to be wary of setting limits or restrictions that were going to be too punitive on the Canadian economy?

[David Mulroney]

I think the discussion throughout the G8 process, recognized by all of the G8 members and flowing from their work last year at St. Petersburg, acknowledges that all economies have to balance environmental protection and economic growth. That's not a Canadian preoccupation alone; everyone accepts that.

One of the ways we've addressed that--and this is an area in which the G8 dialogue, I think, is very fruitful and very valuable--is to look at market mechanisms. One of the best things the G8 does, at the level of leaders and at the level of their officials, is to compare notes on innovations and best practices in particular economies to ensure that industry is fully engaged and contributing.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Then the question I posed in terms of Canada's being wary of having too stringent a framework or guideline or target set up on our economy is true.

[David Mulroney]

No. I think the way I would answer that is to say that every economy in the G8 acknowledges--and there's wide agreement on this--that going forward, you need to balance several things. You need to balance economic--

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Certainly. I wasn't saying it was exclusive to us; I was saying it is part of our negotiating mandate.

My question to you is this. Was it also part of your negotiating mandate to understand the economic downside of not doing anything about climate change? Does Canada have an actual estimation of what severe impacts of climate change will cost our economy, and does that factor into how you negotiate when you go into these meetings?

[David Mulroney]

The negotiations, the discussions, were also careful to take note of what global science is telling us, so I think there was an appreciation, again by everybody in the room, that there's a cost to not addressing climate change.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Do we have any estimates of what those costs will be? The government has spent a great deal of time talking about what the costs to our economy will be of limiting greenhouse gas emissions. “Economic disaster” and those types of terms were thrown around, yet there's been no factoring at all, that we can find, of the government understanding what the economic pain will be of unmitigated climate change. Do you know what those numbers are?

[David Mulroney]

Again, I would be happy to have someone come back from Environment Canada to speak to that.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Did Canada square the circle, in effect, to the subsidies we offer to one of the most polluting forms of energy resources on the planet, in terms of the northern Alberta tar sands? They consume one of the highest rates of energy per unit produced. They also produce one of the highest rates of greenhouse gas emissions of any unit produced. Can Canada rectify that hypocrisy, on one hand talking about wanting to be serious about climate change and on the other hand subsidizing and supporting interests that will, in effect, guarantee we are facing this problem 20 years from now?

[David Mulroney]

Again, and with respect, that wasn't something we discussed in the G8 context.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

So when you go to these meetings--and Canada has a poor track record compared to the other countries when it continues to subsidize some of the most polluting forms of energy on the planet--that doesn't factor into Canada's legitimacy at all. Is that what you're suggesting?

[David Mulroney]

I think what factors into Canada's continuing legitimacy is honesty and forthrightness on the part of the Prime Minister about the numbers as they are, the situation we find ourselves in, and the fact that the Government of Canada has undertaken to do something about it. Again, that was recognized and appreciated.

Everybody in the G8 now understands Canada's position. I think they also understand that we're committed to making progress and are making progress. As I say, again, that's reflected in the final communiqué.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Was there any discussion...? You keep referring to the excitement around being able to establish and foresee targets by all these industrial emitters, but a target is meaningless if a target is establishing either the status quo or potentially something worse. Did Canada put forward a position that absolute targets are required of all the participating members at the G8 meeting in Germany?

[David Mulroney]

The Prime Minister has said we need to move to a system where there are real mandatory targets for all countries. Canada has moved in that direction, and others need to move in that direction too.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

“Absolute” was the key term in my question. Was part of your mandate to negotiate absolute targets on behalf of Canada?

[David Mulroney]

Real and meaningful targets, yes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Warawa and Mr. Harvey, I believe you're splitting your time.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Yes, Chair, I'll be splitting my time.

Thank you, Mr. Mulroney, for being here.

Prior to your going to Germany, six members went to Berlin to the GLOBE G8+5 legislative forum. Tony Blair was one of the speakers and was very optimistic going into G8. So I was quite anxious and was watching it closely.

I have a quote from him. He said the whole tone of this agreement on climate change would have been unimaginable even a year ago. The Glasgow Herald reported that the British Prime Minister also praised the agreement reached on climate change on Thursday with the G8, acknowledging the need for a global deal for the very first time, with substantial cuts in greenhouse gas emissions at its heart. Chancellor Merkel called it a big success. So I want to thank you for the part you played in that.

I was wondering if you could share with the committee the role Canada played in reaching that consensus. Clearly, Canada, Japan, and the EU were at the GLOBE forum we had before; you could see that taking shape. Our plan is almost identical to Japan's. We all reached the target of a 50% reduction by 2050 at the same time, same point, same place, which is really encouraging. It sets a good example to the world, to the United States.

What role did Canada play in reaching that consensus?

[David Mulroney]

I think there are a number of things.

First, the G8 summit was preceded by the Canada-EU summit, which happened in Berlin on the Monday. Climate change was also on the agenda for that, and we ended up with an agreement with the EU that in effect recognized the commonality of our approach, the notion that Canada and the EU underline the need to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions by at least half by 2050.

So there was, I think, a significant meeting of the minds following the Prime Minister's meeting with the German Chancellor and with President Barroso of the EU. He also, of course, met with President Sarkozy and Premier Fillon of France in Paris on Tuesday.

And finally, at the G8 itself, I think he was credible and effective in terms of explaining to all in the room why we in Canada have accepted and are moving towards measurable targets, and why it's significant to aspire to an agreement that includes everybody around the G8 table, including the United States, and that reaches out to the major partner economies, the major industrial developing economies like India and China.

I would say, in those discussions, he and Prime Minister Blair were particularly effective in recapping for the other G8 leaders what essentially was on the table and why it was important to aspire to seize that opportunity and to continue to challenge one another to move forward. There were a number of times when he intervened just to remind people of what was in reach and that it really meant something; that it meant we would hold ourselves to targets, that we would work together to ensure that we were achieving something and that our partners in the developing world were achieving something.

He held out a level of ambition and commitment acknowledging that Canada had come a long way and that we had significant issues that we had to address and were addressing—so with real credibility—but I think he was very persuasive in making that presentation.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Can you share some specifics, as much as you can, in the negotiations that you had with your colleagues from the different countries? There was a question on the negotiation. You can't share everything, but share what you can. How important was your position in negotiating with your counterparts?

[David Mulroney]

I would have to say that climate change—it's a leaders-driven process—was from the outset something that the leaders, the Chancellor, and the Prime Minister intended to have a real discussion on.

Sherpas set up the base camp, but they don't go up to the top of the mountain. That final climb was done by the leaders. The significant issues were discussed and in play by the leaders themselves, and I think the Prime Minister, both in the Canada-EU summit and at the G8, was an architect of the final agreement.