Evidence of meeting #16 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-377.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

That's fair. I don't want to offend members here. Far be it from me to do that on something so crucial as this issue.

I think it's true that Canadians want some practical solutions. To have something kind of vague, and again, as we said, we've repeated that, and that's for emphasis here, of course the ambiguity of Bill C-377....

I think we want the balanced kinds of solutions to environmental protection and economic growth. It means that those economic decisions are environmentally responsible. They absolutely have to be.

Back on February 14, 2007, the House of Commons passed Bill C-288, an act to ensure Canada meets its global climate change obligations under the Kyoto Protocol. Section 3 of that bill stated that the purpose of that act is to ensure that Canada takes effective and timely action to meet its obligations under the Kyoto Protocol and help address the problem of global climate change.

If Bill C-288 is approved by the Senate, subsection 7(1) requires that within 180 days of the act coming into force, the Governor in Council will ensure that Canada fully meets those obligations under article 3, paragraph 1 of the Kyoto Protocol, by making, amending, or repealing—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Point of order. Mr. Chair, I've been listening intently to Mr. Vellacott, and we're getting repetitive baiting and interruptions coming from across the table. He has the right to speak. I encourage each of us around this table to show some manners and listen intently. Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Again, Mr. McGuinty, please address your comments, points of order, and so on to me. Try to rivet yourself on Mr. Vellacott's comments.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Could I respond to the point of order? For Mr. Warawa's benefit, just below the table there's a little circular dial. It controls the volume on the earpieces that we wear. It would be helpful if you would turn—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you for your assistance, Mr. McGuinty.

Let's carry on, please.

Mr. Vellacott.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

I think he's attempting to be good-natured about it, so I'm not really bothered much at this time. I'll carry on.

When you look at Bill C-288, some things Bill C-377 should be doing are the kinds of things we see our government doing—the things it has projected ahead in Bill C-288 and the costing for them. The purpose of Bill C-288 is to examine the economic implications. We don't have any proper costing in Bill C-377 as it stands, and that's the difference. We have something of a costing document here in Bill C-288, looking at the economic implications of it. My colleague Mr. Warawa, right at the top of the meeting here, wants this to be properly costed. It's the big rub here; it's the big problem with the bill before us now. That was done in Bill C-288. We don't find that in Bill C-377. But if we could get something like that with its thoroughness, it is the kind of thing necessary as a prelude to moving or making any kind of progress on any bills before this committee.

The objective of the act requiring us to meet our Kyoto obligations over our commitment period from 2008-12 is real and creditable. In December 1997, Canada and 160 other countries that are members of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change met in Kyoto to conclude a protocol on the convention to limit emissions of greenhouse gases, or GHGs. The resulting agreement, as regular members of this committee know.... Mr. Pearson doesn't sit here regularly, but I think he follows these issues or attempts to keep on top of them as well. The Kyoto Protocol entered into force on February 16, 2005. It was signed by Canada on April 29, 1998, and ratified in 2002.

Under the terms of that Kyoto Protocol, 38 industrialized countries, known as annex 1 countries, committed to cutting their emissions of greenhouse gases, between 2008-12, to levels that were at least 5% below 1990 levels.

In terms of individual country targets, Canada is required to reduce emissions to a level 6% below 1990 levels by 2008-12. As a group, the European Union has a target of 8% reduction from its 1990 levels. The United States, which did not ratify the protocol, had a target of 7% reduction from the 1990 levels, while several other countries, one of them being Australia, which also did not ratify, was permitted to let its emissions continue to grow above 1990 levels, but at a reduced rate of growth.

China and India—and we've made much of that in this committee—two of the largest and fastest-growing economies in the world, both ratified the Kyoto Protocol. They're not required to reduce their emissions under that current agreement.

So that's the global context.

The science underlying climate change tells us that there are human-caused emissions in GHGs. I think that's what members around this table like Mr. Cullen want to get at. I think the good intent of all the members is to get at this issue and do what we can about human-caused emissions of GHGs, resulting primarily from the combustion of fossil fuels for energy. That's a significant driver or escalator of global warming.

Global energy use trends are therefore at the centre of the issue of climate change and are tied to global economic growth projections. In fact, according to world energy outlook 2006 of the International Energy Agency, world energy demand will increase by 53%—and this is important—from 2004 levels by 2030, with 70% of the increase coming from these developing countries. Similar energy and emissions growth projections are made in the IEO 2006 by the energy information administration.

There are charts of that kind of stuff that we can provide for the committee if they so wish.

According to the EIA, fossil fuels remain the dominant source of world energy, accounting for about 83%.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

It's 84%.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Okay, we're out by a percent there, but 83% is what my records indicate. The member across the way, who has his facts right occasionally, could be right. But it accounts for 83% of the overall increase in energy demand between the year 2004 and 2030.

Power generation accounts for about 47% of this increase, and according to both the IEA and the EIA, the world's remaining economically exploitable energy resources are adequate to meet the projected increases in demand through the year 2030. In the absence of that, of any new government action, global energy-related carbon dioxide emissions are going to increase by 55% from 1990 to 2030 if there's no government action taken, with developing countries, primarily China and India, being responsible for about three-quarters of that increase. So that's very significant on their part. Developing countries' share of global emissions overtakes that of the OECD countries soon after 2010. China then becomes the world's largest emitter prior to 2010.

With some of those that were the signatories there are some fairly significant differences. I think, in the context of this particular bill and the context of doing something in Canada in respect to this very important issue of GHG emissions, it was acknowledged that there were significant differences in the progress of various countries toward reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

Overall the European Union, the EU, has kept its emissions stable at around 1990 levels; they started at this a bit sooner. Within the EU, Germany and the UK are some of the most advanced in terms of actually reducing their emissions since 1990.

In the case of Germany, for example, that resulted in part from some major economic changes following reunification. I think that's not unimportant, and it was raised by Luc Harvey, my colleague, in terms of the costing here, because there will be a cost, there's no question about that. We just need to understand that, get a handle on how much the impact will be, and who is going to carry and bear the burden of that, whether it be individuals or corporations.

I think we've made a choice in this country that the big polluters are going to pay, and as individuals we will do our part too. But in Germany, following reunification, it saw the closure and the replacement of economically non-viable industrial facilities of the former East Germany, as well as some fairly proactive government policies, such as the introduction of a carbon tax in that country.

And for the United Kingdom, success in reducing emissions arose from a combination of government policies introduced since late 1990s, and it benefited as well from a long-term trend away from coal as a primary source of domestic industry and household energy.

A little more generally, the fact that the EU has assumed a collective target and the evolution of that organization as it's grown over these past 18 years, since 1990, have worked to its advantages in terms of its ability to meet and even expand upon its Kyoto targets.

Under article 4 of the Kyoto Protocol, the 15 member states of the EU--before it expanded and added some more in 2004--were to collectively meet a GHG reduction target of 8% of 1990 levels by 2012.

All of that is a background to say that these countries started sooner, they progressed, they advanced, and they were able to compensate some of their member states as well for not achieving their targets—Denmark, Ireland, Italy, and Spain. In particular, reunification with the former East Germany allowed Germany, which was the largest European economy, to take on that deep reduction target. So they were in a little different situation from what we are as a country here, and we'll have to chart our own path and forge our own way ahead, which may be different from other parts, particularly the European Union.

Some of those new economies in transition in those EIT countries are now within the 27-member-state European Union, and they still remain well below their Kyoto targets. Some of these EIT Countries—the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, and Slovenia—are now experiencing rapid economic growth. I was in Slovenia last fall, and there's some pretty good new stuff happening in that country, some rapid growth. But it has resulted in GHG emissions increases as well, a 4.1% increase in those countries over the period 2000 to 2004. So, overall, the presence of these EIT countries within the EU, and their economic situations, will contribute greatly to their collective ability to meet both their Kyoto objectives and their recent commitment to reducing emissions by 20% from 1990 levels by the year 2020. So all of that is some background in terms of the cost to Canada here.

As well, just to understand some of the GHG emissions by region and selected countries, in some of the other developed countries, including Canada, the United States, Australia, and Japan, emissions have increased, in some cases very significantly, from 1990 to 2004. However, the most dramatic emissions increases have come in the developing Asian economies—I think we're all aware of that—in countries like China and India, in particular, where economic growth and energy demand have begun to really take off. If you look at it on the chart, you just see a spiking upward exponentially. So despite some progress made by some of the countries, the so-called annex I countries in the Kyoto agreement, and some of the projects mentioned in the World Energy Outlook 2006, total emissions of annex I OECD countries in 2010 will be 29% above the targets set out in the protocol.

But again, our situation is different. I think, Mr. Chair, you would understand that, and so would members of the other parties who have been outside their ridings and their provinces, as I'm sure all have from time to time. I understand that Canada's geography and economy are a little different. Canada is actually the second largest country in the world. Our average and our seasonal temperatures vary widely all across the country. It's not a little country tucked into some part of the globe up against the ocean that you can traverse in a few hours; it's much more than that. If you're a member of Parliament and you come from the west, you just realize how long it takes, and if you drive it, it will take you several days, which is to say, we've got that variance and those changes all across the country in terms of the temperatures. We have hot summers and long and extremely cold winters in parts of the country, such as my region.

Canada's population back in the year 2005 was 32.8 million, with 80% living within 160 kilometres of the 6,400-kilometre-long border with the United States. That distribution illustrates Canada's high level of economic integration with the U.S. Our low population density as a result of the big geographic spread of our country, and the heating and the cooling and the transportation associated with the Canadian context all contribute to our high energy demand and high per capita greenhouse gas emissions. We have different requirements, different needs, from any of these other countries. So you have to keep that in mind and take that into account when you're doing that—

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Vellacott, you do have the floor, and given the motion, you can, of course, continue talking, but I'm a little worried that you're going to beat my record. So with your permission, what I would like to do is to ask for a motion of adjournment; and if I get that, with your permission, we would then adjourn this debate, and maybe you could stay afterwards and you and I could talk.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

You don't get paid enough, Chair.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Do I have your permission?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

I guess so. I'd like to go on, but I guess if you—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I can tell you're very anxious to go on.

Do I have a motion to adjourn?

Mr. Cullen.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Chair, I move that we adjourn this fiasco and remind our colleagues from the Conservatives that if they have concerns about the bill, then they should do their work and bring amendments; and we would entertain those amendments. But as they are right now, they are doing harm to their personal reputations, and are continuing the legacy of this government's failure on the environment.

I move to adjourn.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you.

Just before everyone leaves, could you think about the witnesses for Bill C-474 and try to get those names to us, say by next Thursday or thereabouts? Just keep that in mind.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.