Environment Committee on March 3rd, 2008

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I was going to say that I thought the subject was the same when I left three years ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Not much has changed, I'm afraid, just the players.

Anyway, we will go on to amendment NDP-4, page 15.

Mr. Cullen, there we basically refer to proposed subclause 9(3).

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Is everybody following this? This would become subclause 9(3). We have subclauses 9(1), and 9(2), which we just passed, and this would become subclause 9(3).

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

This refers back to clauses 5 and 6 about the direction and targets. This is another tool to allow the government of the day to make the regulatory requirements. It allows the government to use as many mechanisms as are legal and constitutional, considering all the amendments we've made to the bill, to go beyond just making regulatory amendments.

Again, this is language that is borrowed from Bill C-288, which has already passed through the House. This uses solid constitutional language that was raised by some of our expert witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Are there any comments on NDP-4, which concerns, just to remind everyone, proposed subclause 9(3)?

Mr. Watson.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just to clarify on the technical aspect, I missed the last part here. We carried the amendment, so there is now an editorial change. We have a clause 9--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We have subclause 9(1), which is what's there; we have subclause 9(2), which we just added--

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Which was NDP-3.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

--and we now are adding, if we support it, subclause 9(3).

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

This is proposed subclause 9(3). I am losing track of how many times the NDP has to amend its own bill.

Mr. Chair, as for the language here, we're calling it another tool in the tool box. I think the government's tool box already incorporates a number of tools in our Turning the Corner plan. We already recognize the fact, for example, that climate change is a shared priority across all jurisdictions and communities; it's not just the federal government's responsibility. We acknowledge that the provinces have a role, that our communities have a role, industry has a role, and individual citizens have a role. So in terms of the tool box, I think we already recognize that this is a shared priority across all jurisdictions.

We are as well taking significant action, as the federal government, within our own jurisdiction to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We recognize that it can't be done by federal action alone.

We recognize, in part by our actions with the ecoTrust for the provinces, that there are tools that could be used to assist the provinces. In Ontario alone, I think that allows us to help close Mr. McGuinty's coal-fired generating stations, as one example, which is something he was unable to do himself, Mr. Chair. We recognize there has to be that kind of partnership. It's not going to take federal action alone. Certainly Ontario now can take some action, because we're helping it.

This takes the involvement of industry. We're involved in a wide-ranging process with industry, Mr. Chair, to come up with regulations to help effectively set the carbon price for industries to comply.

It takes the actions of individual citizens. Take, for example, our eco rebates to help retrofit homes for energy efficiency. I just had an energy audit on my own home, and my wife and I are going to try to make improvements for energy efficiency to our own 35-year-old home. So it takes the efforts of individual citizens. That's what our Turning the Corner plan is based on. It's based on a number of those things, Mr. Chair.

Our budgets have reflected the fiscal levers of the government to complement our actions, not only alone but in conjunction with others and with individual citizens, to achieve these types of goals, Mr. Chair.

It is evident that this government, through our Turning the Corner plan, through our budgets, is working with all of our partners, taking an integrated approach, not just with respect to greenhouse gas reductions, Mr. Chair, but we're also interested in pollution reduction--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Watson, I'd really like you to deal with the amendment. I'd like to finish this, if we could, and then call the meeting.

I have still Mr. Bigras and Mr. McGuinty, and one minute for the issue--

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Chair, the member across talked about the tool chest, and I'm simply responding to the comment, Mr. Chair, that the tool chest is built in our Turning the Corner plan. We have many options that we're already using.

Therefore, I'm going to oppose the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Bigras.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I don't understand my colleague's comment. Basically, amendment NDP-4 is saying that if, for example, a province comes up with a plan, or with measures to reduce GHG emissions that are in line with the objectives and with section 5, then these measures would be considered, including any measures set out in agreements signed by the federal government and the provinces.

For example, the $350 million allocated to Quebec to help it meet its Kyoto Protocol targets and the province's plan to fight the effects of climate change will be taken into consideration in the application of section 5. That's seems clear to me. When a plan to fight the effects of climate change undertakes to reduce GHG emissions in conformity with section 5 of the act, these measures will be taken into consideration when the legislation is enforced.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Bigras.

Can you make your point very briefly, Mr. McGuinty?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I counted six separate occasions today when the members of the government talked about the need for analysis. I'm just wondering if it would be possible to request from the minister's office all of the analysis that was performed to backstop the government's Turning the Corner plan.

For example, Mr. Watson just referred to budgetary items. Could he maybe help Canadians understand what analysis backstopped the ecoTrust; what analysis was performed to show exactly how many greenhouse gases would be reduced; what analysis was performed to substantiate their claims on the bus pass measures; and what analysis was performed--any kind of econometric analysis, modelling, whatever--by the government? We have seen nothing at all.

In fairness, the members keep raising the need for analysis in this bill. I'm wondering if they can help us understand what that means in real terms. Could the parliamentary secretary, through the minister, request full disclosure for all Canadians and all members of this committee on all the analysis performed, all the modelling performed inside government and outsourced to consulting firms? We would very much like to see exactly what was done to arrive at the numbers the government is putting forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I think we can request that. It's a whole big issue, but now I'd like to deal with the amendments to Bill C-377. Certainly at some future date we can request that information. Every member has the right to ask for that.

What we're looking at now is NDP-4. We have had a discussion on it. Are there any other comments? No.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 9 as amended agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We are done.

Thank you very much.

Tomorrow we will move right ahead. I want to let you know that of the three rooms that are televised, one is booked by heritage, the other by justice, and the other by ethics.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Chair, I'm glad we're doing that. I wish we had done it sooner.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I think this is better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

The meeting is adjourned.