Environment Committee on May 26th, 2008

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

No, it's pretty tough.

Mr. Warawa is asking for more copies. They might be helpful once they arrive, but I suspect they'll be in only one language when they come. I know they're working hard on the translation as well.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

They also will not be officially distributed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm asking for debate on the motion proposed by Mr. Warawa to amend clause 11. It contains four subclauses, as Mr. Warawa has read.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

The attempt here is to incorporate in one clause the requirements that were in clauses 10 and 11. The specific importance of clause 11 is that it is key to things we do later in the bill. We make reference to objectives and plans for the department or agency. That phrase exists in amendment G-16 to clause 18. So we need to have some objectives and plans that can be dealt with later on, otherwise there's no reference to objectives and plans.

On the language we've inserted here, these objectives and plans not only comply with the federal sustainable development strategy, they contribute to it. We wanted to get in the notion that it's not just simply minimalist; it actually proactively tries to contribute. So those are important things.

You'll see reference to schedule 2 in the act. It refers to agencies that, since the Auditor General Act was passed, have agreed to submit sustainable development plans. You'll see schedule 2 in amendment L-25. These are order in council decisions that were made after the Auditor General Act was passed. They say that the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canada Revenue Agency, CIDA, the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, Parks Canada Agency, and the Public Health Agency have also agreed to submit sustainable development plans. If we didn't put them in here we would be asking for fewer sustainable development plans than we had.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Would you mind reading that list again?

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Sure. It's in L-25, on page 49 in the new package of amendments.

Part of what we're doing here is just making sure this act is every bit as extensive in asking for sustainable development plans as the previous act, plus all of the additions that were put in later by order in council. So there are really these various purposes, which clause 11 is trying to get at. So that's the reference to schedule 2 of this act.

The other thing to be said is that we've also incorporated the idea that the Governor in Council may expand the list. That's subclause 11(3) in this:

(3) The Governor in Council may, on the recommendation of a minister presiding over a department not named in Schedule 1 to the Financial Administration Act, or agency named in Schedule 2 of this Act direct that the requirements of subsections (1) and (2) apply in respect of the department or agencies.

In other words, the list can be expanded down the road, just as it has been expanded since we passed the original act to include these seven agencies. So it allows for future expansion. And those three categories add up to what this act is about.

The fourth point is that the Governor in Council may make regulations to put this into action. So this covers off regulations. It's a multi-purpose activity, which allows the rest of the act to flow. It's a very crucial bit, as well as saying that every minister has to update every three years. That would be the overall rationale for this.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Godfrey.

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have a specific question on proposed subsection 11(4), in terms of the need for.... Of course, the minister can make further regulations; they have that power anyway. I'm not sure why that needs to be here. But specifically, thank you for that more comprehensive look at it.

Now I'm trying to understand what the effects are on the rest of the piece of legislation and what has been lost because of this one comprehensive push through clause 11. Is there anything of substance that is no longer within Bill C-474 as a result of this?

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

No, Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Then to my first question around (4), that the government...why do we specifically need to name this? I've not seen that necessarily before. I assume the minister already has the power to make such regulations within the standing acts of Parliament. Why do we need to point that out in specifics?

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

If you happen to have a copy of the original bill--

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I do.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Look under clause 15, page 10.

Does this replace 15, or is it over and above...?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

This is through the chair, of course.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Sorry, through the chair. The old clause 15 had a section at the very back called “Regulations”:

The Governor in Council may make regulations for the purpose of achieving any of the goals of this Act.

Is this maybe a separate power of regulation? Okay. What we've got is....

Mr. Cullen questions, first of all, why we need the ability to make regulations. I think that's fairly standard form, that it forms part of the....

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

The enabling authority.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Yes, the enabling authority, that's what it is. So the only other question would be whether proposed subclause 11(4), which is quite specific about the sustainable development strategies, means we still allow in place the old clause 15, which is the power to make regulations generally.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Godfrey, obviously your question was to Mr. Warawa, since you wouldn't be asking from behind Mr. Warawa, and I'm sure Mr. Warawa is anxious to answer.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Yes, I am.

He's quite right. Clause 15 is very general. It's a weak clause, saying the Governor in Council may make regulations for the purpose of achieving any of the goals of the act. What we're getting into is more specifics, so some may argue why clause 15 is necessary. But I think clause 11--the amendments from the Liberals and also from the government--is a compromise that achieves the same and provides detail.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Consequentially, then, if such a clause as this one has now been proposed as adopted...I'm just looking through the remainder of clauses to understand what the implications are down the road. Are they all gone? Are there portions of them gone?

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Would you like me to do the walk-through now?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I talked earlier about a walk-through.

Mr. Cullen, is that what you would like?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's essentially what I'm asking for.