Environment Committee on May 13th, 2009

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

How was the lake created, or dug?

[Calvin Duane]

On this particular lake, we were able to use topography to our advantage. We are removing the Tar River as part of our operation, and so we dammed the Tar River at the toe of the Birch Mountains and allowed it to backfill, much like any hydro reservoir would do.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

So this wasn't actually a lake that you dug; it was a space where there was a natural sort of hole or valley in the land.

[Calvin Duane]

That's correct, and our well-water storage pond was different, as we actually dug that one out. So it depends on the use and how you build various lakes and ponds.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

When we talk about reclamation lakes—going forward, I know there are plans for many of them—what proportion will be dug and what proportion will use irregular topography?

[Calvin Duane]

That's specific to each project, so I can't answer your question, unfortunately. It's very specific to the land form a project is occurring on, and whether the lease is on-site or off-site. So I really can't address that. I can only speak to what we were able to use on our project site.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

In defining a reclamation lake—I'm sure you're required to have compensation lakes as part of your land use and permitting process—is there a distinction in the requirements to create compensation lakes between naturally occurring or dam-filled lakes versus dug lakes?

[Calvin Duane]

No, the requirements would be the same. They still have to meet the requirements of being able to support fish over the long term and meeting certain water quality parameters associated with that. It's not only about having a lake, but also being able to potentially fish out of the lake, and those sorts of things, and maintaining proper water quality.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

It just seems to me that the disturbance of actually digging alters what would be the bottom of the lake, as opposed to natural processes of sedimentation over centuries and millennia. It troubles me that there isn't any distinction between the kind of compensation lakes that are going to be created.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Do you have a quick question?

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Mr. Fox, I return to something I said in one of my earlier interventions, that there seems to be a real point of pride or distinction in using non-potable water, or even better, saline water, for the process. It makes us feel that saline water is therefore not important, or is less important to ecosystems and the environment than fresh water.

Can you talk a little bit about the importance of saline water in an ecosystem?

[Matt Fox]

I'm not an ecologist, so I couldn't talk at any length about that.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau.

Mr. Ouellet, go ahead please.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I hope that, as a result of my questions, we'll be able to talk about this later. So many things are being said, Mr. Warawa, that we won't necessarily discuss again later. I very much appreciated the comment. Thank you very much.

I'm mainly speaking to Mr. Wright and Mr. Scott, who are showing us that there are new extraction methods and that they may be better for the environment.

Since Canada appears to be one of the only developed countries that does not have a long-term energy plan, don't you think it's high time the federal government conducted a comprehensive assessment of potential impacts? These impacts change, as you have demonstrated to us. They concern the environment, water, life cycles, the economy, society and responsibility toward first nations.

Currently I would say that the government is focused more on the oil sands than elsewhere. Don't you think it's time to conduct a comprehensive assessment to show that progress is being made.

[Michel Scott]

Thank you for your question. It's an important question for which there's no easy answer.

I think it would be sensible to have a national energy policy. I often think the debate is focused on the environment, or on the economy, or on energy. I believe it's time we balanced those things. It's not just about one or another of those aspects; there are benefits that must flow back to aboriginal people, others to other communities, and others to the rest of Canada. They have to be integrated.

We need energy. I don't know what we would do without energy. We have to pay attention to what we do. If the idea is to raise the dialogue, I think it's sensible to establish facts on a more scientific basis and to promote greater understanding.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

In fact, it should include the social, economic and environmental aspects. It should be related to the definition of sustainable development.

[Michel Scott]

I think it would be possible to find a balance among all the aspects. It's not just about one or the other. We have to find this medium where we can meet our energy needs in such a way that people and the environment are respected.

I think that can be done through technology. That's where we're heading. You heard some ideas today, in particular those of John. However, we can't all get to the same point at the same time. It takes time to demonstrate the viability of these technologies when we make our long-term investments. However, that will evolve.

It should not be forgotten that most of the oil sands resources cannot be recovered through mines. They will be recovered through technologies, such as those that ConocoPhillips Canada, Petrobank Energy and Resources and we are talking about.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Most of the resource cannot be recovered, and in any case it is very difficult to get at it.

However, I like it when you say that we could strike a balance. You're right. We're not looking for a balance; we're leaning to just one side.

I was saying I very much appreciate hearing you say that we have to strike a balance. It could be producing two million barrels a day, combined with other more adventurous solutions. It could be a balance between the other forms of energy and the—

[Michel Scott]

You're going beyond what I said. I didn't say that we would set specific limits, but I think the dialogue—

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You said “balance”. I appreciate that word.

However, could you explain to me the principle you operate on? I understand Mr. Wright's system, but I can't understand yours. Why do you take less water, or why do you recycle all the water? What's the difference between you and the others?

[Michel Scott]

We recycle all the water at various levels and in various quantities. The ConocoPhillips people said they managed to recycle 90% of it and they're aiming for 95%. We recycle 95% of it and we're trying to improve.

That probably depends in part on the quality of our reservoir. We've been lucky to find not only drinking water, or fresh water, that we could have used, but we've also found saline water. We undertook our project with the idea that we would use saline water, but we didn't find any at first. We had to continue drilling wells, a little like what the ConocoPhillips people did. So we managed to put all that together in a much more limited physical space. We produce large quantities in limited space.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Wright, how long did you take to develop the compressed air system?

[John D. Wright]

I think Michel answered your first question, so I'll jump to the second.

The technology that we're using today--patented--was actually invented in 1997 at the University of Bath, and the Government of Alberta...and we purchased the technology from the Government of Alberta in 2001.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Could that technique be used for all in situ extraction?