Evidence of meeting #22 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reductions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
So in fact by the time our government took office in 2006, emissions were actually, at that point, 29.1% or 163 million tonnes over the Kyoto target that Canada had agreed to in 1997.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I'd have to double-check the tonnes, but yes, that sounds about right.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
All right.
I think I've asked all I want to about the lemonade bill. I just want to ask a little bit about the response of the environment department to the report on fisheries, if I have time for that.
Conservative
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Mr. Chair, I would ask that we respect an act that was passed by Parliament and that received royal assent. That is the least we can do. By attacking Bill C-288, he is attacking the House, a majority of which voted in favour of this bill. Please show a little respect for an act that was passed by Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
That's not a point of order. Everybody makes their own decisions on legislation.
Mr. Woodworth, a final question.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I'll modify my comments. Thank you.
It sounded to me as though real progress is being made at Environment Canada on its Fisheries Act responsibilities. From your report I read that the enforcement branch has a number of important quality assurance and control practices in place, including reporting independence for the enforcement branch.
I also read, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that 15 out of 15 randomly selected enforcement actions demonstrated compliance with the compliance and enforcement policy. Did I read that correctly?
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes, that is correct. We did, however, say that the quality assurance needs to be improved at Environment Canada. We found in 15 cases that everything was compliant with the policy. What we didn't find, which we would expect in any organization like this, is that there would be things like random file reviews and headquarters would be checking up to make sure everything is in place. But the sample of 15 turned out well.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I just am always immensely comforted when I find that 15 out of 15 or 100% of randomly selected items in fact demonstrate compliance. I understand as well the enforcement branch is establishing a quality assurance unit and a working group to oversee quality of enforcement data and is going to develop a results-based management and accountability framework this year for its fisheries responsibilities. I wonder if you find that this is a good and robust set of indicators that are addressing some of the concerns you've raised, at least within the environment department.
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes, Chair, I would say by and large we were pleased with the response. It is specific. It gives parliamentarians some very clear timelines. It gives you a basis on which you can follow up. When they say something will be ready by 2009 or 2010, then parliamentarians can follow up to make sure they do in fact follow through.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Thank you, Mr. Woodworth. Your time has expired.
We have about 10 minutes left, and there is time for two more questioners. I just wanted to let people know what the agenda is for the next couple of weeks.
As everybody knows, on Thursday we have COSEWIC appearing on species at risk legislation. Our review will continue. On June 2 we have SARAC appearing. On June 4 we've invited the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, the Forest Products Association, the Fisheries Council, and the Mining Association. On June 9 we have the Canadian Hydropower Association, the Canadian Electricity Association, and CAPP appearing. On June 11 we have invited World Wildlife Fund Canada, the Science Council on Species at Risk, Mike Pearson, and Stewart Elgie from the University of Ottawa. So that's what we have laid out for the next couple of weeks.
We have time for one more question from each side.
Mr. Scarpaleggia.
Liberal
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Mr. Commissioner, I want to go back to the price of energy. In the Conservative government's three plans you examined--there have been three plans and three ministers in three years--have you seen any analysis to indicate how high energy prices will go under the projected regulation, which is scheduled to come into effect on January 1, 2010?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We didn't see any analysis in the two plans that we had examined.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Did you examine the analysis and the data put forward by the previous Minister of the Environment in his full-frontal assault and attack on this law--then a bill--the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
No, we didn't. Within the scope of what we were required to look at, we looked at the two plans in 2007 and 2008.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So you have no analysis whatsoever that you were able to find on the pricing of energy, which the government admits will increase significantly on January 1, 2010, thereby increasing the price of everything in Canada?
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Within the requirements of what we examined, no, we did not look at any. There was no evidence from what we had examined on disclosure of assumptions and energy prices.
Liberal
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We asked for analysis that was directly related to the 2007-08 plans that were submitted to the government, and--my colleague Mr. Arseneault is shaking his head--there was no analysis that we were able to see from what the audit team went in to look at.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So just to conclude then, not only are the reductions being deliberately overstated, but we're also now finding out there's no analysis at all here to backstop implications on energy pricing for Canada.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Just to repeat myself, within the two plans that we looked at, there was no energy pricing sensitivity.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Before I go onto my questioning, in terms of the agenda, I believe there might be some interest in substituting a couple of last meetings on the water and oil sands project for a couple of the meetings on SARA, so I'm just wondering if there might not be a possibility of the steering committee meeting at some point to discuss that.
Conservative