Evidence of meeting #28 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

D. George Dixon  Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
James Barker  Professor, Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Dr. Barker, in your brief summary you stated something that's very interesting to me. You stated that formerly, the big oil sands operations, Suncor and Syncrude, were able to site on impermeable material, but the new ones are being forced to site the tailings ponds on or near shallow aquifers with permeable land.

Would it be fair to suggest that it's probably really important to complete these studies to know what the risks are before we steamroll ahead with operations on lands that are permeable?

9:45 a.m.

Professor, Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. James Barker

My understanding is that as part of the application for those mines, they go through the environmental impact analysis. My understanding again is that those issues are captured and the companies have to identify control mechanisms and other ways to mitigate those problems. They are being addressed on a site-by-site basis.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

In fact, you did mention the issue of cumulative impacts. I'm from Alberta and I've been involved in lots of discussions about the need for cumulative impact assessments. Unfortunately, it's still just talk and it's still site by site. You've clearly identified the need to be consolidating science, data, and findings. Clearly that would make it possible to look at the cumulative impacts. Well, very clearly there's a problem.

Usually the EIA approval process, of course, is the place where sound scientists like yourself would intervene and provide testimony. But based on what you're saying, it sounds like we don't yet know exactly what's happening and we don't yet have any idea of how to actually address the impacts. That's still an unknown.

9:45 a.m.

Professor, Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. James Barker

In terms of groundwater impacts, we have a toolkit, so we know how to address the local impacts. I think the cumulative impact is an important issue, and perhaps that's something Dr. Dixon can address better than I can.

9:45 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

Cumulative impact assessment is not a particularly easy thing to undertake. Most of the EIA's cumulative impact implications are all done based on modelling activity. You develop a model of what the potential cumulative impact would be. All models are wrong, but some are useful. What those models do is predict where you might look for an effect and what the effect would be. It's something where fellows like Jim and I would go out and try to do some work in the environment to see if the model predictions are in fact correct and whether or not we can pick up cumulative impacts.

When I say cumulative impacts, please don't assume that I'm talking strictly about the potential activities of the currently operational oil sands leases and their potential impact on the river system. I'm really talking about the pulp mills along the watershed. Fort McMurray is growing at close to an exponential rate, and--

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It's total loading that you're looking at.

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

It's total loading and some of the issues associated with the release of municipal sewage treatment effluent into the Athabasca from Fort McMurray. That will contribute to metal loadings and this type of thing. It will also contribute to PAHs. The same ones that you get as a runoff from highways are the same PAHs that we're worried about in terms of oil sands activity.

There are two issues to that. One is you have to find out what the cumulative impact is, what the total impact on the environment is. Then, as a secondary, you can start partitioning that to figure out who's responsible for what. In terms of my perspective of trying to protect the environment, I'm rather more concerned about the total impact at the present time. Then we'll worry about who we're going to blame later.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Your time has expired.

Mr. Braid.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank both Dr. Dixon and Dr. Barker for their attendance today and their very thoughtful presentations. It's great to have representatives here from one of Canada's finest post-secondary institutions.

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

Did you expect me to comment on that?

9:50 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I don't think there's a need for any additional comment.

Dr. Dixon, you've been studying the issue of the impacts of the oil sands on water for about 15 years. How many times have you visited the oil sands?

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

I don't know, probably 20 times. I get up to Fort McMurray at least once a year, but usually two or three. I currently have two grad students and a post-doctoral fellow who are working in the area at the present time.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Dr. Barker, how long have you been studying this issue and approximately how many visits have you made to the oil sands?

9:50 a.m.

Professor, Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. James Barker

I actually can't remember how long, but I've been a member of one of Suncor's review boards for about nine years. We meet at Fort McMurray three times a year. So I'm very familiar with Suncor's operation. I have two graduate students working in that area as well at the moment.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I'd like to start with a couple of questions to clarify some of your presentation in your testimony, starting with Dr. Dixon.

You talked about the concept of the end-pit lake. Could you help me understand what that is? Is that an alternative to a tailings pond, or is that part of the reclamation process?

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

An end-pit lake is part of the reclamation process. If you take a look at the leases of the oil sands, you'll see that they have to return the leases to the control of the province in a state that they have—I think the terminology is—an equivalent ecological capacity to the pre-mine state. Now, please do not ask me to define what constitutes an equivalent ecological capacity, because in most cases people are still trying to figure that out.

If you take a look at that activity, you will see there are some things called dry landscape options, which are uplands that will be remediated and reforested. Then there are wet landscape activities, which involve end-pit lakes, and by lake I mean wetland that's probably got at least five metres of water in it. There will also be some wetlands—these are supposedly part of the plan—and then there will be streams that join these up together. When the province has accepted that they have been remediated to standard—the watershed will integrate back into the normal range of the Athabasca—I have no ability to predict when that would actually occur.

The end-pit lake is a strategy to effectively build some wetland component into this reclamation activity. Basically you take a mined-out area, you put some form of tailings in the bottom, usually mature fine tails, you then effectively put a water column on top of that, and you try to have a situation where—and this may be done through fertilizing or it may be done through planting—you end up developing a biological film at the interface on the floor of the lake. It's called the benthos, the biological film that sits between the water and the sediment. Most of these naphthenates and pHs are subject to biological degradation and they will break down through time in a water column. Some of the work I've done shows what happens and how the toxicity changes when that occurs. Effectively, you then have a situation where you have a lake that has water on the top and a naturally occurring biofilm over the material, and it should, through time, develop into a natural lake that becomes part of the reclamation strategy. This end-pit lake strategy is actually fairly commonly used to reclaim strip mining of coal in the States. The difference there is that they don't put tailings in them. This is the big question as to whether or not it's viable. In base metal mining they use end-pit lakes, but it's a totally different type of use. It's part of the reclamation strategy.

The tailings ponds you see on the leases now will not be there when the thing is done; that is my understanding. I'm not an engineer; I know nothing about how they're going to do that. All I'm trying to determine is the toxicity of the materials as one of the indications as to the viability of these systems.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Very good, thank you.

Touching on the issue of the tailings ponds and the process-affected water in those tailings ponds, is any of your research or the research of your team looking at ways to deal with the issue of the process-affected water in the tailings ponds, to ameliorate that issue?

9:55 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

You're speaking from what I'll call a water and waste treatment engineering perspective, of using some type...? No. I have done some work where there have been some companies or organizations that have tried to treat some of this material with, say, advanced oxidation or something like that, and I've looked at how that has changed the toxicity of the material. But in terms of the actual engineering activity associated with changing the process of treatment, I'm not an engineer. I don't do that type of work; I look at the effect.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Okay.

Has any of your research looked at differentiating the potential for airborne contaminants versus direct waterborne...? We've heard some previous testimony with respect to the potential.

9:55 a.m.

Vice-President, University Research and Professor of Biology, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. D. George Dixon

I'd love to play with Dave Schindler's data set, to be perfectly frank. Dave is a good colleague and I may have to get together with him.

I have not looked at airborne transmission. To be perfectly honest, I would love to be looking at airborne deposition to waterborne environments. I have an application that may go somewhere fairly shortly.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Turning to you, Dr. Barker, you mentioned in your presentation that there are some examples not of seepage from tailings ponds but of seepage from dikes. Just to clarify, is the seepage from the dikes a direct result of the water in the dikes or is it from the material that has been used to construct the dike?

9:55 a.m.

Professor, Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. James Barker

Yes, it's actually both.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

It's both. Okay.

9:55 a.m.

Professor, Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Waterloo, As an Individual

Dr. James Barker

The dikes are constructed mainly of sand. To my mind, it is a bit of an engineering feat to construct dikes that work out of sand, and they do. They are constructed out of sand, and the sand is delivered to the dike with process-affected water from the tailing stream. The pore water in the dike contains the same water as the pond does.