Environment Committee on Nov. 5th, 2009

[Avrim Lazar]

I don't want to see the government reacting in a knee-jerk way to what's happening elsewhere, or coming at it long after everyone else, or trying to do it strictly through regulation. This piece-by-piece, ad hoc approach at a time when the global economy is transforming itself to take into account greenness will not give us anywhere near the advantage that a comprehensive, thought through, intelligent strategy will.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Lazar.

Mr. McCabe.

[Don McCabe]

Allow me to say ditto to my colleague's comments. I would add that recognition of the primary sectors and the role they can play in harnessing this carbon atom on a domestic scale in order to address a world problem will come through proper policy.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What would you like the government not to do?

[Don McCabe]

It should not tax my agricultural sector at any further level than we're already experiencing, because I have no room to move.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

The final question is for you, Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Lazar, you said a few things that I thought were eminently sensible. One of them was that there are risks both on the side of adopting too rigorous an approach and an approach that's not rigorous enough. My view is that Bill C-311—which we never seem to talk much about at this committee—is on the very rigorous side, with its target of 25% below 1990 levels. Would you agree with that assessment?

[Avrim Lazar]

I can only speak for my industry. Frankly, we have exceeded it already, so you'd have to ask other industrial sectors. The assessment of what can be done and how fast is not something you can do from within the forest industry. I can say we've done that a couple of times over, and we plan to do more.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Does your experience not allow you to make an assessment of the Canadian approach overall?

[Avrim Lazar]

It would depend upon this bill, and I would say that it shares something with the government's reduction target in that it lacks an actual implementation plan.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's another point.

[Avrim Lazar]

I'm just going to dodge the question, sir.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Something else you said that I thought made eminent sense was that it's easy to put a target out there, but it's the implementation that counts.

You're aware, of course, that the only thing Bill C-311 does is to put a target out there. Correct?

[Avrim Lazar]

I read it this morning on the way here to double-check.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

We've spent hours and hours debating targets without discussing implementation measures. Would you agree with me that our time would have been better spent discussing implementation measures?

[Avrim Lazar]

Actually, I think we have spent most of this time discussing implementation measures, and I have to acknowledge the contribution of the opposition for tabling this bill to remind us that we have to get on with it. I look forward to working with the government in getting on with it.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Earlier you made a comment that I didn't quite catch. It was something about money going to Indonesia not helping. Did I hear that correctly? I know you were trying to get at a general principle, but could you expand on that, please?

[Avrim Lazar]

If the overall production of pulp and paper continues to increase, but because of constraints here the production goes to a place that doesn't have constraints, it's not just that we're losing jobs, but also that the greenhouse gases will actually go up. So it has to be done in the context of a national and global regime that accepts the reality of leakage and deals with it—and there are ways of doing that. For example, if we went forward with a green transformation investment program, we could actually become more efficient than Indonesia and out-compete them while reducing our greenhouse gases.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Mr. Woodworth.

The time has expired. It is one o'clock and I know that some of you have other places to be.

I want to thank Mr. Lazar, Mr. McCabe, and Ms. Cobden for coming to committee today and helping us with our study of Bill C-311.

With that, I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.

We have one. The meeting is adjourned.