Environment Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

It's nice to see you again, Chief Erasmus. As you know, we met in Edmonton, I think it was, when the committee was on its tour of Alberta in the context of its study on oil sands and water, which hopefully we will approve a final report on shortly, perhaps after this bill has gone through committee.

In terms of what might be needed to reach the 25% reduction target by 2020, would you not think it would be much easier to achieve if we lived in a kind of unitary political state, perhaps like Britain, where we didn't have powerful provinces with very different economic bases, with regional rivalries and jealousies, and so on? Would it not be easier to achieve if we lived in that kind of system, with maybe more of a command-and-control government in Ottawa, if that's at all possible? What's your perspective on the achievability of a 25% reduction within the current political context?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you very much.

Yes, I do remember meeting you, and it was a pleasure meeting before the committee. It seems we never have enough time to have the kind of dialogue we need. We might have to have this dialogue outside the committee chambers.

I think strongly that Canada has a real interesting background and history, the way it has been developed. It's not like the States in many ways, but then it is. Yes, the provinces have authority. Yes, indigenous peoples have authority under section 35. The provinces are under section 92, and the federal government is under section 91. We have these incredible agreements that, on the face of it, look like they could do a lot, but they're not being implemented. For example, Treaty 11 goes 200 miles north of the Beaufort Sea because it's an international instrument with Great Britain, but this country refuses to recognize that and have that as a sovereignty document. The issue of sovereignty up in the Beaufort delta was settled in 1921 between our peoples and England, on behalf of Canada, because Canada didn't have the authority to sign the treaty. So this makeup is incredible.

If we were to sit down and talk about adaptation, talk about the potential this country has, we could go a long way, but there are a select few who want to tell everyone what to do and guide our lives; it doesn't work today and it's not going to work tomorrow.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Chief Erasmus, let's say that we couldn't achieve a 25% reduction by 2020, but that we could achieve something not quite that, but closer to it. Would you be happy with that, or is it a sort of all-or-nothing proposition for you?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I think what we need to talk about is how you get there. To me, it doesn't make sense to be looking for oil if oil is not the future.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Do you think oil will be phased out as an energy source by 2020?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I don't know all of the numbers, but clearly, in this day and age—it's 2010 now.... Do you know what I would do if I were one of you sitting where you sit? I would convince the government to invest so that we wouldn't have to rely on oil or gas. I would tell the oil companies, for example, or the manufacturers of the vehicles, to find a way, to put their major investment into that, so that we wouldn't have to pay the price of oil or gas, and convert those vehicles' motors. That's where I would invest, just for example. And if that were the case, the rest of the world would follow. Canada has to be the lead.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your five minutes have expired.

We'll continue.

Mr. Watson, you have the floor.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, of course, to our witnesses appearing here today, Chief Erasmus and Mr. Tulurialik.

We're here studying Bill C-311 currently, a bill sponsored by a member of the New Democratic Party, and of course this is not the government's climate change plan, though Bill C-311 could have serious effects upon that. Our options as a committee are whether this bill will be passed as is by the committee, whether it will be rejected as is by the committee, or whether there will be changes proposed to the bill. That's the task in front of us. And changes could be based on the input of witnesses.

Having laid that as the foundation to our witnesses, Chief Erasmus, I want to start with you, because I'm a little confused, based on your testimony so far. You said, in response to Mr. Woodworth's question, that you think you may have been consulted by the NDP in the drafting of this bill.

Mr. Tulurialik, you said you weren't sure whether the NDP consulted you on this bill, but it's possible that there may have been some consultation. You've also said, on the other side of it, that we need more consultation. So I'm not sure, for purposes of considering Bill C-311, the NDP's bill, whether there has been enough consultation or whether we need more consultation specifically with first peoples. Could you answer that question for me as a starting point?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

The difficulty is that you in Parliament are having many arguments amongst ourselves. You can't agree on what the future ought to be, and the system works in such a way that you can present these different bills, and you're trying to include people in them. Some people are included as they're kicking and fighting, and other people are eagerly there. What we're saying is that we're not the general public. You're obligated to work with us in a particular way because of section 35 in the Canadian Constitution and because of agreements such as the Nunavut one and agreements such as the provincial governments have.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I understand that. I'm sorry to interrupt, but more to the point of the question, this is an NDP bill: do we need more consultation with first peoples on aspects of the bill and the potential effects of the bill? That is the question, because we're at a point in the legislative process when we have to make a decision about this bill and what's in it.

Do we need more input from first peoples with respect to what's in this bill—that's the point of my question—or are you satisfied that there has been enough consultation on it?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

You do need more input, but that shouldn't be used as a tactic to stop the bill.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I'm going to take it that we need more consultation with respect to the bill from first peoples.

Mr. Tulurialik, do you share the same opinion that more consultation is needed with respect to the specifics of Bill C-311, the NDP's bill on climate change?

[Joe Tulurialik]

Yes, we do need more consultation on it. I can't understand that it can actually really help us up here. The NDP is presenting it. There has to be change in that area.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I can appreciate that. I can see already in the discussion that there can be very different regional effects when we discuss what to do about climate change.

I come from the southernmost riding in all of Canada. Of course, the auto industry is king there, so possible effects on the auto industry, for example, do become a major part of the discussion that I bring to the table here as a member of Parliament on behalf of my region. I can see now that issues can be very different with respect to the north, and I can appreciate that.

I am going to have some difficulty in terms of further questions because you both testified to some extent that you've either only read part of the bill or you haven't read the bill, so you may have some difficulty answering questions about the bill. I will pose them again for the record, and if you could answer in a written submission to the committee, we would appreciate that. I'll just leave them for the record for you so that you can provide a written response to the committee.

Specifically, because climate change has impacts with respect to the north, does Bill C-311 address the issue of adaptation in a meaningful fashion? That's question one.

Question two, do you feel that traditional aboriginal knowledge has been appropriately used in developing Bill C-311?

Question three is about industries in the north that affect aboriginal communities. Have they been appropriately consulted in the preparation of Bill C-311?

If you could provide written answers to the committee on those questions, we'd certainly appreciate that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

The time has expired.

Gentlemen, Mr. Watson asked you to provide written submissions on those questions. If you could forward those, at your convenience, we would appreciate it.

Mr. Braid, you get to finish off with the final question.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you very much to both of our witnesses for participating today by teleconference.

I would like to come back to the issue of adaptation that Mr. Calkins introduced in our discussion. I have one question, and this will be our final question this afternoon. Could both of you gentlemen please outline what your respective organizations are doing to facilitate, support, and advance the issue of adaptation in your communities?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I'll answer very succinctly, but in a nice way.

We have been adapting to the south for a long time. We know how you work. We're not sure if you're going to survive with what happens in the future, but we know we will.

Thank you.

[Joe Tulurialik]

I cannot add anything else to what Chief Erasmus said. He said it bang on.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We are out of time, but we did start late and we had some technical difficulties. I'll let you have your full five-minute round. You do have about three and a half minutes left.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Perhaps I'll come back to my question. I don't think we heard answers there.

With respect to the notion of adapting to global climate change, could you outline what either one of your organizations is doing in the north to support, facilitate, adopt, and advance climate change adaptation? What initiatives are you taking now to deal with both the current and future impacts of global warming?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Our elders tell us not to tell other peoples what we're doing because they'll soon take our ways and act as if it belonged to them, like they did with the canoe and the kayak. I can tell you very little on the subject.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Are you aware if Bill C-311 speaks to the issue of climate change adaptation at all?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I imagine it tries to.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Do you know how it does that?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I told you I know very little about the bill. I haven't actually read it in its depth, and I have a hard time understanding how they tackle all these issues to begin with. So it is not fair for me to comment on it.