Environment Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We do ask that questions be relevant to the bill and to climate change as regards the impact of Bill C-311. I would ask that questions be along that line.

We won't pay for Mr. Warawa.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Certainly, Mr. Chair. I will make that direct connection immediately.

Mr. Tulurialik, I understand you were part of the Inuvik Declaration on Arctic Climate Change and Global Action and that you participated in the youth summit on northern climate change this past August. In the declaration, you called upon the government to commit to the Bill C-311 targets of at least 25% below 1990 levels by 2020, at least 80% below 1990 by 2050, and a credible plan to reach those targets.

Do I understand clearly what the declaration is calling for?

[Joe Tulurialik]

Yes; affirmative.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

So I would understand, then, that this would be the position you would be taking onward and speaking to on behalf of Canadians.

There has been some discussion by my colleagues with you about whether or not either of you, first nations governments or youth in the north, have been engaged in discussions with the federal government on the positions they are taking related to the science-based targets. I wonder if either of you could tell me if you've been contacted by the Canadian government or been given resources to formally establish a system to gather, document, and assess traditional knowledge in establishing Canada's position on the targets we set.

Mr. Erasmus.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I want to answer the question in a way that relates to the bill. I don't mean to pull the committee one way or the other; I'm expressing a view from where I am in the world. Your job is to take that and use it in a way that will help you through this.

Mr. Chairman, in addressing this question, I'll talk a little bit about what happens when you try to get funding and try to get involved. What's happening right now is that our people have found that they have to express themselves, and the best way they can do that is through traditional knowledge, by bringing their elders forward, by reminding people of how we ought to move forward, all based on our own principles and values and so on.

The problem is that the system is not designed to hear our people. It's not designed to accept the science we have. It's not designed to recognize that our people have survived because we're able to adapt, because we're able to look forward, because we sincerely want to work with everyone. The system is based on an individual one, and we have great difficulty with that.

We're able to bring our concerns forward and talk about targets and talk about what the world could be, but it's very difficult. When we voice our concerns, many of our people don't see how the country brings their issues together.

For example, this bill that you're bringing forward connects with a whole lot of other things. It links with economics. It links with language. It links with culture. It links with the very fabric of this country. If everyone is not involved in it, you as parliamentarians are going to be accused of doing something that's against the will of the people. And we will feel this for the next hundred years.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Here's your chance, Mr. Tulurialik, just briefly.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Tulurialik, do you have anything to add to that?

[Joe Tulurialik]

Yes. Actually, Mr. Erasmus said that very clearly, about the way the aboriginal and Inuit people, as well as the indigenous people, feel very strongly that we have to be a part of this. We've been affected by this and we've known all about that for many years. Even in my short lifetime—I'm only 31 years old—I've seen a lot of dramatic changes within the last 10 to 15 years. Even the young people notice a lot of strange and different things that have been happening due to climate change.

Yes, I just totally agree with what Chief Erasmus said about consulting aboriginal people.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much. Your time has expired.

We're going to continue to move on.

Mr. Warawa, you have the last of the seven-minute rounds.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses, Mr. Tulurialik and Mr. Erasmus, for making the effort. It's unfortunate that you weren't able to be with us today due to weather issues, but again, we do all appreciate what you've shared to this point.

I found it very interesting, because climate change is happening. There is consensus, both internationally and within this committee, that climate change is happening. It's very important to hear your perspective of how that is affecting first nations, Inuit, and Métis. I appreciate what you've shared.

Our focus today is on Bill C-311. My question to both of you is.... Do you have a copy of Bill C-311 with you today?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I do not have it with me.

[Joe Tulurialik]

I actually had it with me this morning and I forgot to put it in my briefcase before I came to this conference.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Okay. Thank you so much.

Have both of you had a chance to read it?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I have not had a chance to read it. I do have an idea of what it entails, and I know my people in the Northwest Territories—at least 25,000 of them—have not read it either.

[Joe Tulurialik]

I have read a little bit of it. I haven't read the whole thing through. A lot of us who have Bill C-311 haven't read it.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Okay. Thank you for that.

You shared that with climate change things are changing and things are becoming more expensive. Mr. Tulurialik shared that everything needs to be flown in, and that's expensive. You've shared that deer are moving to the north. Chief Erasmus shared that the cost of snow removal is very expensive with heavier, wetter snow.

Are you aware of the impacts, the cost impacts, that Bill C-311 would impose on first nations?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

If we're not involved, it may cost our lives.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Okay. We've had witnesses—scientists actually—who shared that.... The question I had asked was whether we would be adopting costs similar to Denmark's and Sweden's. I shared that about three weeks ago I was in Copenhagen. When asked if we have to become another Denmark or Sweden, Mr. John Drexhage replied that he thinks that to a large degree, yes, we do.

Would you favour having a 180% sales tax on buying snowmobiles? Would you support that?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I don't mean to speak ahead of our other presenter. This is what I was getting at earlier; I think we need to sit down together, all peoples of this land, including all of the indigenous peoples.

A very interesting thing happened in the U.S. two weeks ago. President Obama invited all of the tribal peoples to meet with him, and they talked about the economy and about the future of America. Apparently, it may not have moved as far as people wanted, but a process is beginning.

Canada, with much fewer people, ought to do the same. If I were the Prime Minister, I would call in the first peoples of this land, with their experts, and talk about how we ought to stimulate the economy, how we ought to approach the world, and how we can get out of this mess we're in. Our people notice—

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's not answering the question.

My question is, are you aware of the cost that Bill C-311 would impose on all Canadians, including first nations, Inuit, Métis? The cost for energy would dramatically increase, and the example the scientists shared was costs imposed on all Canadians similar to those in Denmark and Sweden. Having just come back, I saw dramatically increased costs for energy, and that would affect you. I just was wondering if you were aware of that.

I have just a quick question on consultation. Are you aware of the consultation that the government has ongoing?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you.

The point I was going to make is that costs do not have to rise if we work together to develop the economy. The difficulty right now is you only get a margin of the views out there and then you develop a response. That doesn't work. That most likely might be happening in those other countries, but there are many more resources and much more to work on—

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Erasmus, I'm sorry, I have only a limited amount of time. Could you answer my question about consultation?

Are you aware of the government's consultations with first nations?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Yes, I'm aware that Canada is making an effort, but it's a dismal one.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Okay, thank you. You are aware that we're consulting.

Are you aware of our greenhouse gas emission reductions that we've published two drafts of in the Canada Gazette? Are you familiar with those drafts?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I am familiar with Canada's position. Yes, I am familiar.