Environment Committee on Nov. 19th, 2009

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

There are also differences because there are national regulations that differ, which in effect increase the price of carbon in a particular national jurisdiction because there are carbon levies and so on in addition to the price established by the market. So you are right that investment will tend to be driven by where people see the most advantage and possibilities for profit.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So to level the playing field, you have to either try to level those incentives or disincentives or else you have to get subsidies here and there. Is that correct? I'm going back to Mr. Brinkmann's comment about leveling the playing field. Am I getting it correct?

[His Excellency Matthias Brinkmann]

Subsidies are strictly controlled both nationally and at the European Union level. So subsidies must be justified and they are controlled by the European Commission and then eventually by the Court of Justice. So it's not so that a national government could unilaterally decide to give the subsidies to their own industry.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

It is European-wide. Do you understand that the North American economy between Canada and the United States is also highly integrated? Would you agree with the comment that the same kind of level playing field needs to be worked out on a North American economic basis as you have in Europe?

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

I think that's a matter for North America.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

As I understand it, the issue around climate change is human activity causing emissions. Do you agree with that?

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

I think that human causation is a factor, and scientists are still determining how great a factor. There are some who think it's a very important driving factor and some who would say it's a less important driving factor, but I think there's very wide agreement that it's a factor.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All other things being equal, more people probably mean more emissions, correct?

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

Certainly, yes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

And population growth therefore probably makes emission control a little more challenging. Would that be correct?

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

Definitely.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Your time has expired, Mr. Woodworth. You're just getting rolling, I can see.

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

I agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Ouellet, please.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming and for enlightening us with your testimonies.

Let me go come back to the regional or territorial approach that you mentioned earlier. As it is now, some want us to believe that we must absolutely adopt the American targets. However, last weekend, I spent the whole afternoon with the members of a Mexican delegation talking about environment, and we even carried the discussion over the next day. So we cannot speak in terms of a North-American approach. As far as I am concerned it is a Canadian approach, period.

You keep on refering to the global approach, and I think that this is what we should be aiming for. We should set global targets. It is in this spirit that we will be meeting in Denmark in fifteen days from now. We must stop thinking only about ourselves and in terms of our next-door market.

I would like to know if together with the 27 European states you decided to set your targets based on the least able or least willing countries or rather on the most progressive ones.

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

I'm not sure I entirely understood the question. When we made the European targets, you're asking did we take into account—

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

The lowest or the highest country. You said a while ago that various countries are not at the same level of possibilities. Which one did you choose? Did you choose to lower everybody to the lowest one or to bring them all up to the highest?

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

The target we've chosen is not driven by comparing what others can do. It is driven by what the scientists are telling us. In the UN climate change conference, they are telling us that two degrees is the maximum level that we can allow the world to warm up without very dangerous security implications that would lead to extreme weather events, mass migrations, and crop failures. If we want two degrees, scientists agree that this means we have to have at least a 50% reduction on 1990 by 2050. In the case of the developed countries, that means we must take on between 80% and 95% of the reductions. So our target is not driven by comparing the highest or the lowest in other countries; it is driven by the science.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Don't you think that your goal, which is to keep the global temperatures rise within two degrees Celcius, will impact people's way of life, that they will choose different means of transportation?

The fact is that we have been told again and again that, in Europe and particularly in Denmark, gasoline and motor car taxes are expensive. Don't you foresee a change in lifestyle, mainly in transportation and other areas?

[His Excellency Matthias Brinkmann]

Of course, and it is already the case because of the costs of electricity, oil and gas, among others, that are a lot higher over there. We have always have small cars; we turn off building lights, ride on bicycles, etc.

The behaviour of the people is changing all the time.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Would you say that this change in lifestyle has led to a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions since 1990?

[His Excellency Matthias Brinkmann]

No doubt about it.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

All right.

[His Excellency Anthony Joyce Cary]

On changing lifestyles, I sometimes feel there's a sense that change is bound to lead to a lower standard of living, that if the price of gas doubles people will be only half as happy. My impression from living in Sweden, where there was a very high energy price, was that people actually lived extremely well. They just have a different basket—

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mark, you should listen.