Evidence of meeting #40 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was targets.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
I'm sorry, Mr. Woodworth, your time has expired.
We will move on.
Mr. Ouellet, it is your turn.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank both of you for being here today. You have put a smile back on the faces of our friends opposite, especially Mr. Woodworth. I had not seen him smile for two or three weeks. Now he is smiling and he seems happy thanks to you. So I thank you for coming.
I would like to reiterate something Mr. Woodworth said. You see, he is smiling. So I will continue. What is at the heart of the problem? Why is Bill C-311 being proposed? Is it to determine targets or to reduce greenhouse gas emissions so as to not increase the earth's temperature by more than two degrees?
It seems to me that what is essential is not the question of targets or savings. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it is to maintain the standard of living in Canada, as we have often heard. Perhaps it is to maintain the economy—you are an economist—in its current state as long as possible. Your extraordinary presentation seems to be made for our generation and not for future generations.
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
There are two aspects here. First of all, the problem of climate change that we are facing is global and worldwide. Whatever action Canada takes, regardless of what all other countries do, will have essentially no effect on the problem itself. Canada produces about 2% of greenhouse gas emissions. This is why we have to see this issue as an international relations problem. There needs to be an international approach where large emitters, like Canada, play a very special role.
I understand where your question is coming from, but I think that we need clear targets to enable Canada to be a player on the international scene. When all the players worldwide play together, we will have an impact on the problem. That is why targets are important. You have to look at the level of effort.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I'll stop you right there because I have limited time. Yes, we are only responsible for 2% of emissions, but as you said earlier on, we have more emissions per capita than anywhere else. So it is important for us to do something about it.
You are an economist. Have you evaluated, given the 20% target Canada may set, what the consequences would be for agriculture, specifically in the west? This morning, I attended a conference where it was said that there is going to be a serious shortage of water everywhere. Water security in Canada will be vital in a few years' time. We are going to be losing our boreal forests. That is an issue of economics, Mr. Plourde. Have you done that assessment?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
No, I have not. Again, it is a global problem. The entire world must act to prevent this outcome. It is not only up to Canada to act and to ensure that the problems experienced in Canadian agriculture from one province to the next because of a lack of water are avoided, and that we avoid the destruction of our boreal forests, that this possibility is eliminated. This has to be seen as a global problem and we must ensure that we are a significant player in the global effort.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I agree. But the fact remains that a number of scientists say that it will have a local effect. Canada is so large that there will be an effect on local agriculture, specifically in the western provinces, in your province and in Saskatchewan.
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Certainly, but it is not the emissions from Alberta, Saskatchewan or western Canada that will have a total impact on emissions. When we are emitting greenhouse gases, they are spread out throughout the atmosphere. It does not remain a concentration—
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Mr. Plourde, the rise in temperature will mean more water vapour, more humidity, which will have direct consequences here. It will not only happen in Africa or elsewhere. It will happen here, there will be local overheating.
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Certainly. The impact will be local, but the cause of the problem is global. The problem has to be viewed in this light.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Today, in the United States, there are three projects on the table. One from the Senate, one from the House of Representatives, and another one from the agency. Under these three projects, the U.S. would seek to establish carbon emissions fees. Europe is also considering a fee. You have not mentioned anything to that effect for Canada.
Do you believe Canada should establish carbon emissions fees?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Based on the conversations I have heard about the American approach, it would seem they favour the tradable permit approach. It is certainly possible to opt for a carbon tax, call it what you will. These two measures will have similar effects in some regards, but different in others. It would seem to me that the idea of removing certain tools from our toolbox without first considering them is not a good idea. We know that in general, this type of measure compared to others would lead to lower emission reduction costs. All of these options have to be considered to ensure that emissions reduction is done at a reasonable cost.
Conservative
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the discussion and debate going on here. I am a member of Parliament from Alberta, and I would like you, Mr. Plourde, if you could, for the record to state which province was the first in the country to have climate change legislation tabled and passed in its provincial legislature.
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
The province of Alberta was the first North American jurisdiction to do so.
November 26th, 2009 / 12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
I appreciate that. That's a very good, interesting, and honest answer.
I want to get to the issue of dealing with the costs that are associated with this plan. We heard testimony from the Pembina Institute, which came with a plan that said the assumptions were that there was no capital flight leaving Canada and that if we implemented the plan with Bill C-311 in an environment in which there wasn't any capital flight leaving Canada and there wasn't any wealth transfer, the economic impact upon the province of Alberta would be about a 12% lower GDP. Were you aware of that report?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Do you think it's reasonable, given the fact that the testimony from Aldyen Donnelly, who testified before this committee, indicated that the capital flight from the European Union to Canada increased our economic output and benefits substantially? Did you have a chance to review that testimony?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
There are two things that I think matter here. The first one is, do we want to act on this problem? The second thing is, what mechanisms do we want to employ to act on the problem?
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
That's going to get to my point, Mr. Plourde, but would you agree with me that if one country takes on targets that are overly ambitious, unreasonable, and untenable, the result will be capital flight from those particular jurisdictions?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
If there is an international trading of some form or another, yes, of course there will be.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
That's why it's absolutely important, would you not say, that Canada work in concert with its major trading partners in developing a comprehensive plan? We know that the G-8 plus 5 are responsible for about 70% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, it only makes sense that if we don't have an agreement that includes the G-8 plus 5 and has targets that are fair and amenable to all the G-8 plus 5, there will be costs incurred in those jurisdictions that agreed to outrageous targets compared with those countries that negotiate a better deal for themselves. This would result in economic competitive losses that would ultimately result in the offshoring of jobs from any country that signs on to ridiculous targets. Would you not agree?
Professor, Department of Economics, University of Alberta, As an Individual
I have said publicly, I have published, and I have testified before this committee of the House that an integrated North American approach to climate policy would be a better way to conceive of this problem.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you very much. That's all I have.
I share any time I have remaining with Mr. Woodworth or any of my other colleagues.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Mr. Woodworth, if you want to take the rest of Mr. Calkins' time, you have about two minutes.
