Evidence of meeting #43 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I've listened intently to the comments made by my colleagues here. I think what we've seen over the last many years is very concerning. It's a pattern of Liberal flip-flops, not just recently, but over the last 15 years or so, and maybe over 20 years. Maybe it's a pattern that has been consistent.

The Liberals spoke against Bill C-311 when it was in the House and said it was no good. Then they voted for it, which left people scratching their heads. How could they be against it, yet vote for it? That resulted in Bill C-311 being sent to committee.

Then the Liberals said that Bill C-311 needed to be amended. Here we are to discuss amendments, and in spite of them saying it needed to be amended, where are their amendments? There are none.

When the Liberals were in government for 13 long years, they set targets and committed Canada to the Kyoto targets, but they had no plan. Now they have no targets. Today we've seen the Liberals filibuster, and we have protesters taking off their clothes and protesting a Liberal filibuster against climate change. So we've seen it all.

Our government has been honest. We've set the targets. The government is taking many of you to Copenhagen to be part of those international climate discussions and negotiations. We've been honest and we've said we want to have an agreement. The planet needs an international agreement on climate change. Canada will do its fair share.

But all we hear is talk, talk, talk from the Liberals. I think there has been enough talk. We need to move on to action, so I will move that the debate be now adjourned.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay. I have a motion on the floor. It's a dilatory motion that is non-debatable and immediately votable.

All those in favour of adjourning debate? This is to adjourn debate on the motion. It's not to adjourn the meeting.

(Motion agreed to)

Debate on the motion is now adjourned. Just so everybody is clear, that motion is off the floor, but at the same time, we won't be considering that business now. We've adjourned debate on Bill C-311, so it will be deemed reported back to the House unamended on December 10.

Oh, wait. We vote on the main motion, true enough, which is that Bill C-311 be deemed to have been considered clause by clause and be reported back to the House without amendment. So we're going to vote on the motion itself, since we've adjourned debate.

(Motion agreed to on division)

That's carried, so we'll report that back.

Do we have one motion that has been on the record for Mr. Scarpaleggia?

I understand that you wanted to move this.

Noon

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I gave notice of this motion a couple of weeks ago now, I guess.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Could you read it into the record, please?

Noon

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Sure. Thank you.

It states:

That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development invite Mr. Graham Thomson, author of the paper entitled Burying Carbon Dioxide in Underground Saline Aquifers: Political Folly or Climate Change Fix, and other experts to discuss new information relating to the impact on Canada's water resources of carbon capture and storage technology as potentially applied to the oil sands; or otherwise incorporate a discussion of Mr. Graham Thomson's paper and its findings in the committee's final study report.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. Do you want to speak to the motion?

Noon

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Yes. Well, essentially, while the last few weeks have been very important because we have been discussing the great global challenge, which is climate change, and Canada's reaction or lack of reaction to it, I think many committee members are hoping we can bring closure to a study that began almost a year ago into the oil sands and their impact on water.

As you know, Chair, it's important that our report reflect the most up-to-date information and insights on the issue of water and oil sands. Since the end of our hearings, including our tour last spring, there have been new papers published, new reports published. There has been a paper published on the potential impact of carbon capture and storage on aquifers.

We've heard over and over again from this government, and in fact from the Government of Alberta as well, that carbon capture and storage is one of the solutions to the growing emissions coming from the oil sands. I have my doubts as to whether it's applicable to the oil sands, but in any event, Mr. Warawa on many occasions wanted to discuss carbon capture and storage in the context of the committee's study on oil sands and water. This would be the opportunity to incorporate into the report some kind of discussion. It doesn't have to be a major chapter by any means, but I think some kind of discussion should be incorporated into the final report on the subject of carbon capture and storage and the potential impact on aquifers in the region of the oil sands.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Is there any debate on the motion?

Mr. Warawa, and then Mr. Bigras.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I have no problem with calling more witnesses for the oil sands study. I don't know if this motion is timely, because the steering committee is going to have to decide what the next commitment of the committee is. Should it be SARA? I think so. On Bill S-216, there are legislative requirements. Maybe there is other private members' business, bills.

At this point, I have no problem with passing a motion that we call somebody else. It's just that it's fine to have Mr. Graham Thomson come, but when will that be? That will be up to the steering committee to decide when we're going to have a review, when we're going to have a continuation of a study of the oil sands.

Chair, I want to make it very clear that supporting this is supporting that we re-open discussions for the oil sands at some time, and Mr. Graham Thomson would be included as one of many more witnesses for the oil sands.

But clearly we're not making a commitment that it's our next study. I think we have to go to SARA. I've heard from a number of environmental groups that have shared with us their concern that we stopped SARA and that we need to get back to SARA, the Species at Risk Act.

I will support it with the understanding that Mr. Graham Thomson will be just one of many other witnesses who will be invited to the committee sometime in the future.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I think the motion is clear on that. It's not putting a timeline on it. The steering committee will decide that timeline, Mr. Warawa. Plus, it said “and other experts to discuss new information relating to the impact on Canada's water resources” and the oil sands, so I think it's quite clear in the motion that we're just voting on inviting more witnesses, including Mr. Graham Thomson.

Monsieur Bigras, s'il vous plaît.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I do not know where this motion has come from, but I also need some explanation. My question may be for the research analysts.

What point are we at in preparing the report? Has a lot of work been done? Have we prepared the draft? I have yet to see the draft report.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

The report is still in draft stage, and they've gone through a first purview of it. There is a concern about Dr. O'Connor. We had Dr. O'Connor at the committee, and there was a decision made by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta about Dr. O'Connor, which we have to take into consideration in the report.

Again, when we have finished hearing from all the witnesses, we will then start with the final round of the report.

Monsieur Bigras.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

It seemed to me that we had practically finished studying this matter and were in the process of preparing the draft. I thought that the next step would be to collate and amend this draft. However, it looks as though we are now suggesting that we reopen the debate and I am wondering where that could lead.

Mr. Warawa is quite right. We are talking about Mr. Thompson, but other experts have also been mentioned. Who are they? At the end of the motion, there is mention of conclusions that he will be presenting in a final report, once his study has been completed. This motion is rather vague. I completely agree with Mr. Warawa. The steering committee should deal with this issue. If the steering committee feels that the debate should be reopened, this witness could certainly be invited, but we would have to see whether other witnesses could be as well.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I do have Madam Duncan before, if you're ready, Ms. Duncan.

Francis, I'll come back to you.

Linda.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've spoken to Francis about this a bit, and he may have adjusted it and tried to be flexible, given the discussion, but I find unfortunately the motion a little nonsensical. I'm not really sure what I'd be voting for if I voted for the motion.

My concerns are severalfold. I know the government is keen to get back to SARA. I'd also like to get back to SARA, but frankly, I would prefer that we first of all deal with the draft report on the oil sands and water. The reason for that is, as far as I understand, and as Monsieur Bigras said, it is our understanding that we have finished our hearings and all we are waiting for is our very capable staff to complete their drafting of the document.

Since that date when we finished those hearings, way back last summer, the economy has picked up in Alberta and approvals of further oil sands activities are steamrolling ahead. I think there is very important timeliness in our report; I think it's incumbent upon us as committee members to be expediting, getting any recommendations that we may agree on, based on the testimony we've heard to date, and getting that into the hopper, into the government for consideration.

As I recall, Mr. Warawa quite some time ago, when we were deliberating what we would hear and what we would not hear on that topic, was very keen to discuss carbon capture and sequestration. We decided to kind of sidebar that as another avenue to go into. I would not be averse to the suggestion that at some date this committee actually take on the discussion of carbon capture and sequestration, including looking at the potential impact on water resources. Because the main testing and potential use in this country right now for carbon capture and sequestration, and for the United States and China, is for coal-fired power, I would prefer the discussion on that technology not just be restricted to the tar sands. I don't think that will allow us the proper ambit by talking about that technology and the potential impact on groundwater, surface water, and so forth.

I appreciate Mr. Scarpaleggia's curiosity on this. I would instead encourage, leading into our discussion potentially on CCS, that the committee obtain or perhaps the library staff could help us to get the report, and simply begin the background reading.

My second concern would be that as Graham Thomson is a journalist, he has been roundly criticized that he can't actually attest to the findings in this paper, and he has defended it by saying it's a compilation of what a broad array of experts have said in that area. So I can foresee getting into the problem of him relaying what's in his report, and then we may say, well, we'd like to hear from some of those experts who are in the report, and on and on and on it goes.

I would rather that we had the opportunity to sit down as a committee and map out what we might like to discuss and what kinds of experts and background materials and testimony and so forth we would like on this discussion. I think clearly the government is strongly behind that as almost its singular technology right now. I think it's incumbent upon this committee to seriously start delving into looking at that.

I am not in favour of delaying a report getting out, and I'm very strongly in favour of making that our first and foremost activity. I'm hopeful that within, say, two meetings we can complete our review and agreement or disagreement on that final report and we can get back to SARA expeditiously and give it the time it deserves.

I understand the interest in Mr. Graham's report, but there are a lot of other reports that are coming out as well that potentially we could review. I would rather that those are focused on a broader discussion of CCS and the various uses that could be made across Canada.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We do have a steering committee meeting scheduled for Thursday morning.

I've got Mr. Scarpaleggia, then Monsieur Bigras, and then Mr. Warawa.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I agree with both Mr. Bigras and Ms. Duncan. If you read the motion carefully, you will agree that it is really ambiguous and flexible. After all, that was the intent.

I agree that we do not necessarily have to have Mr. Thompson or other experts testify on this issue. However, it would be irresponsible to produce a report that is not up-to-date, that does not consider the issues raised since we began holding our meetings, whether they be with respect to Dr. O'Connor's file or Dr. Schindler's report that was published this morning. We would be publishing a report with a number of shortcomings.

If we do not want to invite Mr. Thompson, I would prefer to conclude this report and publish it as quickly as possible instead of waiting and opening up the debate to other witnesses. When drafting the report, I would like the research analysts to mention the ideas raised by Mr. Thompson.

It is unlikely that we will be able to think about studying carbon storage in the next few weeks. We have two other reports to complete and two other issues to deal with. An in-depth study on carbon storage is not something that we can do today. As a fair compromise, I would suggest that we give our research analysts permission to include a small section on what came out of Mr. Thompson's brief, without prejudice, so that our report will be as complete as possible.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay.

Monsieur Bigras.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I do not know if Mr. Scarpaleggia is making a motion or just a suggestion. Personally, if this is a motion, I would not be in favour of mandating the research analysts to include the aspects covered in Mr. Thompson's analysis without knowing what they are. I am somewhat cautious.

However, I would like to make an amendment to the motion. I do not know whether this is possible.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Yes, you can make an amendment.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee ask the Steering Committee to evaluate the invitation of Mr. Graham Thomson, author of the paper entitled “Burying ...

That means that we do understand what Mr. Scarpaleggia has just said. The steering committee would be formally mandated to study this issue. Given that we do not have very many items to study, the steering committee could meet as early as Thursday.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Unfortunately, I will not be here on Thursday. I have to be in my riding because the Olympic torch is coming through my area.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Are you a member of the steering committee?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Yes.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

It is important that the steering committee meet in order to look at this possibility. There is a strong commitment from the committee that the steering committee will take into account. At the same time, this would enable us to work on future business, to begin looking at what we should study and what we should be prioritizing. That is what my motion is all about.