Environment Committee on April 22nd, 2010

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is it per fiscal year?

[Dean Holman]

That's right.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay.

Do you have a multi-year funding commitment? This is presumably an ongoing statutory responsibility of the government. It's under, as you say, section 8.1 of the act, which says there shall be a NACOSAR. Has that funding been stable over the last little while or...?

[Dean Holman]

I'll have to take the question under advisement.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay.

In the last short while, how many times has NACOSAR asked the minister for an opportunity to meet?

[Dean Holman]

I believe the last time was a letter that was written by the chair directly to the minister. I believe it was sometime in 2009. I can't tell you the exact date right now.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

If I might ask you--and you may not be able to answer--I think I heard you say that there were repeated requests to meet with the minister and there has been no response.

Do I take it, then, that the chair and the members who sit at NACOSAR must take that as basically an answer, I suppose? Does the answer mean that either the minister is too busy to meet with you or that maybe you're not important enough to be met with, or--hopefully not--that we intend to wind you up and shut you down?

[Dean Holman]

I'm trying to answer very cautiously.

I would take any silence in response to a request from any individual or organization in particular not as an answer from that individual but possibly as a symptom of the process itself.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That's very fair of you, and I respect that. It's taking it at face value to say that there may be something wrong with the process and keeping it objective.

I support your caution, but it's a $650,000 organization that hasn't been able to meet with the minister after repeated requests. You say that your monthly meetings, your engagement processes, your terms of reference are not developed. You don't have multi-year funding to allow you to plan out. You've had no response from the minister to requests for meetings, and in your conclusion you said that the government has failed to consult with aboriginal people, at least certainly through NACOSAR.

I'd say we have a problem here with the process, this being one of the two primary consultative functions--or the three, including the ministers' round table--that were designed into the act to get a better application of the act and an improvement of the act over time.

What advice do you have for the committee? It may be too early into the job to know, but do you have any specific advice?

[Dean Holman]

Are you asking me as an individual or as a spokesperson for NACOSAR?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm asking you as the spokesperson for NACOSAR.

[Dean Holman]

I definitely have to take that into consideration as well and provide you with an answer through a consensus or a meeting with my council.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Monsieur Bigras, s'il vous plaît.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Holman, I must say that I would not like to be in your shoes at the moment, because this must not be an easy situation. After your testimony, I feel very badly for you.

Could you tell us how you would describe the present state of the council? Would it be appropriate to use the expression “empty shell”? Later, we will see why we reached that point. How would you describe the present state of the council?

[Dean Holman]

That's a good question.

My description of the council is that basically you have individuals who have been involved in the Species at Risk Act for approximately 10 or 15 years, a much longer time than the five or six years that SARA has been in place. You have a body of individuals who started as an aboriginal working group. The vision of that working group has been carried on regardless of the actual changes or of how NACOSAR is written into the Species at Risk Act.

Their vision, I believe, is in conflict with their position or with the powers they are given under the act. That is sort of how I would describe NACOSAR as a whole.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

You say in your recommendation 2 that NACOSAR should have a bigger operating budget. We are not surprised when organizations like yours come to make requests like that, but I am struck by something in your recommendation 2: you feel that the council should have more administrative independence. It is as if you are telling us that you have to be accountable and that that perhaps is the basic problem.

Do you feel that this lack of independence has caused the council's current problems? How does all this play out? Why are you here today trying to tell us that there should be more administrative independence? What facts do you have that cause you to say that? What has happened that leads you to make that recommendation to us? Has there been interference from Environment Canada?

[Dean Holman]

You brought up a number of different points there. I don't think Environment Canada has interfered with NACOSAR. Environment Canada and NACOSAR haven't engaged each other meaningfully. They're at more of an intervening level rather than an influential level.

The council is basically asking for independence because of timing issues. The protocols that Environment Canada has to follow in its financial administration are very complicated, and it's come to a point where NACOSAR cannot enter into any contracts or even hire a NACOSAR coordinator independently. This is something that has put shackles on a body that's supposed to be providing meaningful advice to the minister, and it's unable to do it without first going through the processes of a government department.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

To your knowledge, has there been any direct influence from Environment Canada to change council decisions?

[Dean Holman]

There has never been intervention by Environment Canada to change a decision. Perhaps I'm coming across incorrectly. Environment Canada has been invited to the meetings to provide support as a secretariat. That is their duty to NACOSAR, to provide secretariat support.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I have no further questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing.

I understand the difficulty you're having. I'd say you're doing an admirable job, considering that you're new in the position. Congratulations on your appointment.

Your testimony raised a thousand and one questions that I'm not going to have the opportunity to ask. But I will throw a few questions at you. Do your best to reply.

Based on the testimony of the previous witnesses, the Walpole Island First Nation, they're frustrated; while they would like to provide input through NACOSAR, they have to pay their own way. That raised a question in my mind immediately. If you're given a budget of $650,000, is there clear direction on how that's to be allocated, and is some of that money designated for outreach to individual first nations? Connected to that, what is the difference between the roles of NACOSAR and the ATK subcommittee of COSEWIC in consulting with individual first nations on species listings, recovery plans, and action plans? This may be something you're going to have to look into, because you're new.

I'm left kind of puzzled about what the respective roles are, particularly in gathering aboriginal traditional knowledge. What exactly are the expectations? And what is NACOSAR's role, if it is specified, in meeting with and gathering information from, specifically, potentially impacted first nations? Sorry, that's a lot. I'm just trying to give you an all-encompassing question.

Can you explain to me as best you can where you see the role of NACOSAR versus the ATK subcommittee? Are you given specific directions on exactly what you're to do? Or do you have some discretion? Or does the ministry say, “you will do this, this, and that with the money”, and direct what your daily activities are?

[Dean Holman]

If you'll excuse me for a second, I'm just going to call someone up to confer with.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

She can join us at the table if you want her to respond.