Environment Committee on Nov. 1st, 2010

[Prof. William Amos]

Yes, absolutely, quite possibly. But as many of our speakers have already mentioned, this is focused on guaranteeing participation and guaranteeing access to information, which then allows government decision-makers to engage with citizens to hopefully prevent that end-of-the-line situation.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

In that case, do you think we could do something with this act to take away the sections that worry me, in that we might end up putting policy-making into the hands of judges? Could we maybe amend that out of this act?

[Prof. William Amos]

I think that's an interesting proposal that I would disagree with entirely. The reason I most disagree with it--and I'm actually surprised that you wouldn't disagree with it--is that the stated position of this government is that they're going to be watching what happens in the U.S. vis-à-vis climate change and developing our own climate change policy here with a view to theirs.

Here in Canada, there's nothing wrong with looking at what's happened in the U.S., and they have a strong tradition of using litigation to help generate societally beneficial outcomes through environmental challenges in the courts.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

You're suggesting that's the route we should go.

[Prof. William Amos]

I'm not suggesting that it's where we have to go--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Sorry, but I think I'm out of time.

[Prof. William Amos]

--but I'm suggesting that it's one mechanism that could strengthen the environmental governance regime in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much.

As we discussed at the beginning of the meeting, Ms. Duncan wanted some time to discuss our upcoming agenda for our Wednesday meeting, I believe.

With that, I'm going to dismiss our witnesses. I want to thank all five of you for taking time out of your busy schedules to appear today to provide your input on this act. We'll definitely take your testimony and written briefs and use them in our evaluation and report back to Parliament, as deemed necessary.

With that, Ms. Duncan, you wanted to discuss our Wednesday meeting.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

I know you are trying to go in the direction that I am and I appreciate your efforts in that regard. I was just troubled when I received this notice that all of a sudden we were reviewing SARA and, after the fact, it has been explained.

I just want to make sure that in future we make sure that all of the committee is on board with what we're going to be doing, because that was inconsistent with what we had agreed to. I'm worried that it might be opening a Pandora's box. Are we going to be doing this every meeting from now on if we have difficulty contacting witnesses?

Is there anything we committee members can do to help facilitate making witnesses more readily available in a timely fashion to complete the review of this bill, which I'm quite happy to expedite?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'll respond first, before I give the floor to you, Mr. Warawa.

It's part of my responsibility and duty as chair of this committee to fulfill the administrative role of making sure that our meetings are scheduled and that we are productive and working. I have no control, unfortunately, over witnesses.

We did have four witnesses who originally said they would be appearing on Wednesday. All four have now since cancelled on us. In the interests of time, especially since the last one to decline the invitation did so just around lunchtime today, and to keep us moving forward, I made the decision that we go back to SARA on Wednesday and continue working on the issues and options paper.

If you, as committee members, want to be talking to the potential witnesses we have invited to ensure that they do show up, I'd encourage you to do so. Unfortunately, we have no control over their schedules. But it does make it much more difficult for us to present a balanced report when we're not getting all the information brought forward.

Go ahead, Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I just want to address the comments made by Ms. Duncan that there was an agreed agenda. There was not an agreed agenda. I think there was a motion that was passed by the coalition to not deal with SARA, which I disagreed with, and I made that very clear to each of the members.

I think we had a moral responsibility to fufill our first responsibility, which was to finish SARA and to make sure that species that are at risk are being dealt with properly. But that was voted on--the coalition said no, we don't want to deal with SARA--so we're now dealing with Bill C-469.

I'm a little concerned also that the number of witnesses is being very one-sided. We're not hearing from industry. We're not hearing from first nations. We're not hearing from fishermen. We're not hearing from Hydro-Québec; we heard from testimony that Hydro-Québec could be shut down, and yet we're forging ahead with Bill C-469.

I think we need to hear witnesses or we need to proceed to clause-by-clause, but to have this go on, and without an agreement about how long this is going to be, I think it's fruitless.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We have a point of order over here, Mr. Warawa.

If it's debate, I'll be ruling against it real quick.

[Gerard Kennedy, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

No. I think we're hearing debate, but I'm not wanting to join it. I thought we passed a motion from a subcommittee. Is that not correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We did. I was going to get to that. There was a report, which is public, that came from the subcommittee and that set the agenda. That takes us so far and after that then I have to play my role as the chair to make sure that our meetings are filled.

[Gerard Kennedy, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Warawa, if you could, wrap up your comments, please.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I think I've made my point.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay. If I—

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

The point is that on Bill C-469, if Ms. Duncan would like to have us move on to clause-by-clause, that's fine, but if we're going to hear from witnesses, there should be a balanced presentation so that we're hearing not just from ENGOs, which are very important to hear from...but they're the main beneficiaries. They're the ones who have assisted Ms. Duncan and the NDP in writing this legislation. It really appears to be the tail wagging the dog. I'm very concerned that we're not getting a balanced presentation from witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Warawa, I'll just say in defence of the clerk and the analysts here, as well as other members of this committee, that we did extend invitations to everyone we had on our list, including first nations and including different members of industry. Unfortunately, we haven't heard back from most of them, and the ones that originally said that they were going to be here are now backing out. So we're put in kind of a quandary, and I'm trying to find the best way to get through the quagmire.

With that, are there any other comments?

Ms. Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for summing that up. Nobody I've heard of is objecting to any of the witness names that are put forward. It's the witnesses themselves who have pulled out, and nobody's more disappointed than I am that we're not hearing from all sides. I know that the clerk is bending over backwards to try to reach people.

I'm raising this because I have undertaken to expedite the review of my bill. I've worked very cooperatively. I respect the view of every opinion in this committee and I don't think it's fair to be name-calling to one side of this table. It was a majority that voted in favour of an agenda and so be it.

Let's not just keep reinventing the wheel. So we will be moving Wednesday. Hopefully we can complete the table of contents and the analysts can start their work.

I think it's incumbent upon all the committee members to be reaching out to complete the review of this bill and identify witnesses. I mean, if a particular industry representative.... I didn't put forward those names, so I can't speak to why they would suddenly not be available. If we can come up with other industry representatives, I would be delighted to hear from industry. That's why I'm suggesting that maybe the committee can assist the clerk.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Those are good points. I would just also say, finally, that since our meeting on Wednesday is changing and we aren't going to hear from more of our witnesses until after we get back from break week, I would suggest to anyone who wants to put forward amendments to Bill C-469 to have them in to the clerk by Wednesday, November 17.

With that, I'll call for a motion to adjourn.

[An hon. member]

So moved.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We're out of here.