Evidence of meeting #32 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was court.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Thank you, Chair.
To each of the witnesses, thank you for being here.
Mr. Amos, I'm going to begin with you. You mentioned that you met with Ms. Duncan and with Nathan Cullen, I believe. To what extent was Ecojustice involved in the drafting of this Bill C-469?
Prof. William Amos
Ecojustice wasn't involved in the drafting of this bill. Back in 2007 and 2008, Ecojustice set about working on a project to develop a model bill of environmental rights. We did extensive research on U.S. and provincial territorial jurisdictions that had experience in this area and then we published it. It's still available on the web. The date--June 2008--is still on it.
We've been engaged ever since in trying to speak with parliamentarians on all sides, trying to engage them and convince them that this is a law reform initiative worthy of pursuing.
Conservative
Conservative
Prof. William Amos
Yes. My colleague Margot Venton and I have both participated at various times in discussions with various parliamentarians.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Okay. Who do you speculate would be the primary people using Bill C-469 if it became legislation? We have environmental groups, ENGOs, as the primary witnesses here. Would you see them as the primary users of this type of legislation?
Prof. William Amos
In my assessment, it would be the average Canadian, the Tim Hortons Canadian, who would be using this.
November 1st, 2010 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
In Bill C-469, you used the term “resident”, Canadian resident. Could you define “Canadian resident”?
Prof. William Amos
I haven't used that term. The legislation proposes the use of that term--
Prof. William Amos
That's an immigration law question that I'm probably not qualified to answer, but I would understand that it would be a person who has the particular status of resident under Canadian law.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
So it's not necessarily a Canadian citizen. It would be a resident.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
You support Bill C-469, but you're not sure what “resident” means.
Prof. William Amos
In fact, in our model legislation--and I imagine that my colleague Beatrice Olivastri has comments to this effect--we articulated that the rights should be for all Canadians, so it's Canadians and Canadian entities.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Okay.
Mr. Kneen, you said that Ecojustice assisted in your legal action. You've also said that when existing laws are not enforced, then legal action will promote action. I think that's what you said. You went on to say, "Give us the tools, and we will finish the job". The term “stick” has been used a number of times; when you said “tools,” were you referring to the stick?
Communications Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
I was referring to a range of legislative and regulatory tools, specifically the measures envisioned in this bill. What I meant by that was that organizations such as ours work with affected communities. We do a lot of education work. We work through the Canadian Environmental Network with other environmental organizations. We do a lot of orientation and training. I think this goes to some of the other questions that have been raised in terms of what the available tools are, and the--
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
I'm sorry to cut you off, but it was a very short question.
I heard a number of people use the term “stick”. Do you agree that whatever the tools are, they're to force the government to take action? I think you said that. Is that correct?
Communications Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
Yes. I think there's an important distinction between having the ability to sue and actually doing so. The gap we're looking at now is whether the incentive is there on the part of federal agencies to actually fulfill their mandates and enforce their own legislation.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
So Bill C-469 would increase the number of court actions against the government and the role of courts in shaping environmental policy.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Do you agree that public policy would be created by litigation or the threat of it?
Communications Coordinator, MiningWatch Canada
No. The entire point is that the threat of litigation is a very strong motivator. Our group doesn't like to litigate any more than anyone else. It's expensive and time-consuming. If there's a lower-cost way of achieving those results, we will choose it every time.
Conservative