Evidence of meeting #35 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Firth  Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Jacob Irving  President, Canadian Hydropower Association
Ian Kerr  Vice-President of Development, Brookfield Power Services Inc.; Canadian Hydropower Association

3:55 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

Yes, sure, I'm happy to do that, and thank you. I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

I guess the fact that the precautionary principle is built into the bill is something we're particularly pleased to see. In one way, again, it sort of integrates something we support, again, from an occupational health and safety perspective. Something we sort of push towards when looking at workplace hazards is that a precautionary principle approach be taken. Instead of taking a risk assessment view, which basically asks how much risk is acceptable, the precautionary principle tells us that we should act to do as little harm as possible, and in doing so, to consider a full spectrum of alternatives to prevent and minimize harm.

I was thinking about the precautionary principle this morning, actually, in a sort of philosophical way. You could look at it this way. If you were considering a development project or some sort of business venture, you wouldn't enter into a business venture only when you had 100% proof-positive evidence that your venture would be profitable. You would have a pretty good idea that your venture might be profitable. I was wondering why we can't use the same sort of reasoning to apply to environmental harm. I think that's exactly what the precautionary principle does. If you have a pretty good idea that some harm will result from the action, you should stop that action to mitigate it and minimize the harm as much as possible by looking at various alternatives.

I alluded to the occupational health foundation behind the precautionary principle. It actually goes back much further than that. There is actually a public health genesis behind the precautionary principle. If you'll allow me, I'll give a bit of a history lesson.

I don't know if anyone knows the story of the public health doctor Dr. Percival Pott, in London, England, in the late eighteenth century. This is the genesis behind what we call the precautionary principle, which is typically associated with environmental actions but was actually adopted from public health.

There was a cholera outbreak in London in the late eighteenth century in a particular neighbourhood where this one doctor worked. It was in industrial London. House after house was affected, with the exception of one building in this one neighbourhood in all of London, which was a brewery. Dr. Pott didn't have the benefit of 21st century medical technology at his disposal, but he saw that all of the residents of this neighbourhood were drawing their water from one public well. There was actually a tap or fountain or whatever they had back then. So he actually intervened, without knowing that this was the cause, and he physically removed the water supply from this neighbourhood. And subsequently, the cholera cases dropped off considerably. That's considered the birthplace of the precautionary principle.

It also sort of suggests that you should drink beer instead of water, I suppose.

3:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

That idea, again, has been adopted from public health and applied to occupational health and safety. In this bill, it's being espoused as an approach to environmental issues. So it's something that's close to CUPE's heart, in that sense.

4 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you very much.

Actually, that was really a good presentation, because I understand from my study of environmental law that the genesis of environmental law, including federal environmental law, is public health law. That's where our first department of the environment was. So it's logical that the people who work in public health and occupational safety should be contributing to future development.

You spoke a fair bit about the concept of just transition and the right of workers to participate in environmental decision-making. I wonder if you could expand a bit more on how the rights and opportunities under this bill could potentially extend the right of workers to participate in decisions about the environment outside the scope of the immediate workplace. And how can just transition fit into moving towards a cleaner economy or greater consideration for environmental protection in decision-making on energy and development?

4 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

I guess the simple short answer is that if just transition programs are in place, workers are going to be much more enthusiastic about greening the economy. In just transition programs the basic idea is that with workers who would be affected because of changes in industry due to environmental improvements, or what have you, instead of being thrown out the door without any protection, they would be dealt with in a more just manner. They could be retrained, for example, and find work in greener and cleaner workplaces.

As far as greater participation, it gets back to what I was saying about the parallels between occupational health and safety law, and what is proposed in this bill. Because our members know they are protected or have certain rights granted to them by occupational health and safety law, their willingness to participate goes up. If they knew they had the same rights via this bill, I think their willingness to participate would increase.

I don't want to mislead people that the environment is precisely at the top of CUPE's agenda, but something like this that encourages greater citizen participation in environmental decision-making would only work to enhance how our members might participate in that process.

As I have said before, CUPE--both our organization and our members--looks beyond just wages and benefits to doing various things to improve our quality of life. That extends to improving environmental protection, the air we breathe in the atmosphere, and the rest of it.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. Your time has expired, Ms. Duncan.

Mr. Warawa, you have the last of the seven minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Firth, for being here. You mentioned that you represent 600,000 members of CUPE, and you would like to improve the quality of life for your members. How did you determine the position of your members on Bill C-469?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

I didn't talk to all 600,000 of them, if that's what you're asking.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Was there any type of consultation to determine their position on Bill C-469?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

Yes, there was.

CUPE's structure includes an environment committee comprised of worker representatives from different parts of the country. They were shown the bill and were asked for input on the brief. In that sense, those people are environmental worker representatives from each of the different provinces and divisions that we represent. They're tasked with providing guidance to the staff at the committee's national office.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Keep your answers short, please, because I have a limited amount of time.

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

They are gateway members. They are real workers who have read the bill and the brief and provided input.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

As far as the actual 600,000 members, a survey was not sent out. It was the smaller groups. Is that correct?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Did you seek a legal position?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

This is just from those people.

Are they professionals like scientists or lawyers, or are they general members?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

They are general members, but our membership is--

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Are they scientists?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

In some cases they are. We have members who work in natural resources, for example.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

What percentage of the people who came up with this position are scientists?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

You know...not the majority.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Were there any suggested amendments to Bill C-469?

4:05 p.m.

Senior Officer, Health, Safety and Environment, Canadian Union of Public Employees

Matthew Firth

There were none, except for the point I made about bolstering the prohibition of reprisals.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

You used the word “citizen” a number of times. Bill C-469 uses the term “resident”. Would you support a resident retroactively challenging existing regulations or permits?

Do you I understand my question?