Environment Committee on May 17th, 2012

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you for that.

I'll go back to where I was a few minutes ago. We were talking to our representatives from the Calgary Zoo.

You also mentioned aquariums there. A few days ago the committee was out on Vancouver Island. We were looking at habitat issues out there, but we also were hosted by the Vancouver Island shellfish research centre, which had a very interesting display there in some of the tanks. They said they brought us to the tanks at the end because once you get a group in there it's hard to go on with any other program. Of course we were looking at the various aquatic species interacting in a tank where you can touch them and observe them up close, and so on.

We have another aquarium about to open in Ucluelet, on the west side of Vancouver Island.

The sea, for those of us on Vancouver Island—and we have people living on the land and we have the marine area there, and a lot of people just do not interact with what's going on—has a whole world of activity just below the water. Getting kids engaged in tide pools and looking at the aquatic life and the intertidal zone and so on is such an important experience.

Coming back to where you were just a minute ago when Mr. Toet asked you questions, you mentioned some environmental education in the zoo. You mentioned the parks people being there, but are you doing any programs in the zoo, or going into the schools, for example, to make presentations there and just taking them out in the school yard?

What can be done in an urban setting to help people appreciate nature that's around them in a way that's positive and not structured?

[Dr. Jake Veasey]

We have in excess of 25,000 formal school visits a year at the Calgary Zoo. We have 1.2 million visitors overall.

We hope everyone who visits the zoo will take something beneficial away from it. A lot of that is not necessarily through formal education, but merely by the experience of getting the opportunity to see animals, to get close to animals and to smell them. You described the experience at the aquarium. There is a very real difference between being up close and personal to a living animal. I think it sensitizes people to conservation messages, which TV and classroom-based education really can't.

We approach conservation education on a whole bunch of levels, such as formal teaching programs in the zoo and keeper talks throughout the day.

Kevin might be able to talk about the numbers of people we think are exposed to educational experiences at the zoo.

[Kevin Strange]

Something like 300,000 people attended programs at the zoo last year. There are years when the total audience for the organized programs at the zoo is 500,000 people. As well as the 25,000 children who attend formal curriculum-based programs at the zoo, there are another 25,000 who attend on a more informal basis at the Calgary Zoo. That pattern is probably the same in CAZA accredited zoos across the country where they exist in urban centres. They are very popular field trip destinations for anybody who is living in a city and teaching in a city.

Maybe I could just make one comment about getting out into the community and teaching people to engage with nature. We have a program that involves school yard naturalization—not school yard beautification, just school yard naturalization. It creates a setting in a school ground, which usually has a couple of species of grass and a lot of asphalt. It creates an opportunity for kids to see a little more biodiversity. The trick is just to get kids in nature, to roll around in the grass, play in the dirt, and get their fingernails dirty. We're starting to sense, as a growing body of research indicates, that a person's world view about nature may start to form as early as age two. For a child who is just playing in the dirt, that could have a profound impact. A child who's squeamish about earthworms is probably going to grow up to be someone who is not a steward of nature and doesn't really care much about the environment.

If you go to the zoo today, you'll see a lot of moms, mostly, who are pushing two-year-olds around in strollers. In schoolyards on the week-ends you'll see a lot of small children playing in the dirt with their older brothers and sisters. Those things are making an impact, which I think zoos are fairly uniquely positioned to do, because they exist in urban environments.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

The time has expired.

Mr. Pilon, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I have a short question for the zoo representatives.

Where does your operations funding come from?

[Dr. Jake Veasey]

I think in the region of 80% of the money comes directly from visitors and self-generated income. We get an operating grant from the City of Calgary.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I also have a quick question for Mr. Jamieson.

Do you think increasing grazing production could prevent wetland destruction?

[Bob Jamieson]

The way I look at the grazing system in western Canada is that in 1800 we had a couple of million bovids, animals with big hooves and square mouths, grazing the landscape. We've replaced them with domestic cows. The timing is different, but cattle play a very similar role in the system that bison or buffalo played a long time ago.

It's a very complicated process of thinking through grass management, but in effect how that works ecologically on the east slope in the Cypress Hills and the sand hills has not changed a lot. It certainly hasn't changed to anywhere near the degree that it's changed on landscapes that we cultivate and where we turn over the soil over, etc.

Part of my view of the world here, as a systems ecologist, is that we now have a mix of natural and industrial systems that fit together. Cattle have replaced bison, logging has replaced fire; there's a whole bunch of ways in which....

The ecosystem restoration in our valley is entirely dependent on the presence of the pulp mill, for some very complicated reasons. We have to think about these things as systems rather than always focusing on the fate of ferrets or sage grouse or caribou. We have to think about things in a fundamentally different way, in my view.

I'd like to add one more comment, if I may, just in support of the zoo guys. I happened to work with these guys in Africa. In addition to the things they talked about in terms of educating people here, they are involved in something called the Wechiau hippo sanctuary in west Africa, near where I used to work over there. It is one of the best examples of community-driven conservation on the planet. That role played by zoos is one that they haven't mentioned here, and it's really important to understand.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Sears and Mr. Jamieson, as has previously been mentioned a few times, we toured Olds College yesterday. They showed us that being ecologically minded and profitable were not mutually exclusive.

I'd like to know where both of you stand on that.

[Bob Jamieson]

I think you can't make a profit if you aren't thinking about the ecology of the landscape you manage. It's crucial. That's where, in my view, we're not thinking appropriately about these things.

Larry is the land manager of a big chunk of the Porcupine Hills. His role is critical, and he is frustrated—if I may speak for him—as a lot of people in that part of the world are, because they're treated like the enemy when in fact they are the most important part of the entire system.

The other point with that, as we try to find solutions, is that I think we've done a way better job in Canada around watershed management and water issues than we've done around land issues. We have to think through how we would get the people in the Beaver Valley or the east slope to deal with the water element of issues there but also the land issues. I don't think the watershed group for Oldman is going to want to talk about wolf issues, or sharp-tailed grouse, or sage grouse, etc. We have to figure out a mechanism to deal with the land issues in the same community-oriented way as we do with the water issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Time has expired.

Mr. Toet, you have five minutes.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

I'd asked the Calgary zoo people about education, but I think it's also a very important aspect here. I'd love to hear the insights from Mr. Sears and Mr. Jamieson as simply ranchers.

Do you feel there's a role that you can play also in the education aspect of rural versus urban? One of you talked about the cultural divide that we have. How can ranchers play a role in bridging that divide, bringing the two parties together, and getting rid of that conflict aspect? Do you feel there's a role that you can play? And if you do, have you thought about that? Or are there actually some things in place that are already bringing that about?

[Bob Jamieson]

As a kid I had the huge opportunity to work, as one does at 14, on the Stampede Ranch in the Eden Valley. That place was Guy Weadick's, the guy who started the Calgary Stampede. It was a wonderful experience to connect me to the natural world. Watching a calf come out of its mother changes your world view.

In those days, 50% of my generation had that experience here in Alberta. Now it's 1%. The problem with that is that it's not about walking around looking for calves any more; it's about driving big machines.

I think a lot of us would love to have the kids out there—I have kids out to my place all the time—but it's hard to give them a sense of being involved. You don't want to put a 14-year-old on a tractor or a combine. It's not a simple proposition. But I definitely think, in the same sense that we take people out to show them national parks and give that experience to them, that they should be visiting operating ranches. We should have a national program to support kids going out.

I think you'd have to pay one of Larry's kids to corral them—you know, take care of them for the day and keep them out of trouble—but I think the concept is really important in terms of reconnecting with those landscapes.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Sears, could you add to that?

[Larry Sears]

Definitely. Thank you.

I think we do have a role to play. It's been difficult to do it. As Lorne mentioned, relationship-building and trust are key. Experiential knowledge exists with us, as the land managers. Some of us may not have a degree from a university, but I have a master's degree from the school of hard knocks, I can guarantee you.

So there's a lot to be learned. As Bob mentioned, we represent the less than 1% of the population with rural roots anymore. Many people don't understand the practical aspects.

One of the agricultural groups here in the province has a classroom agriculture program, which is aimed at grade 4 students across the province. They get into as many classrooms as they can to give them a bit of an education. That's helpful.

For a lot of us, it would be encouraging, I guess, although somewhat of a burden, to entertain urban people who come out and have a look to try to understand how your operation goes. I've entertained lots of international groups. It's fun; they were our customers and clients at one time or another, and it's highly rewarding to be able to do it. Quite frankly, though, I don't have the time. We're too busy trying to make a living.

So it's difficult. It's a challenge.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Yes. It is a challenge, but effectively it could have some great results if we could go forward on that.

Mr. Fitch, did you want to add to that?

[Lorne Fitch]

I'd like to point out that this is one of the premier awareness documents of the Cows and Fish program. There are about 75,000 of these circulating around North America and other parts of the world. Stories about ranch management and examples of ranch stewardship make up about half of the documents. These documents don't go just to the agricultural community; they're circulated through a wide variety of communities.

In addition, Cows and Fish has developed a kids game, called Cows, Fish, Cattledogs and Kids!, which we deliver to about 2,500 kids per year. It helps kids, primarily in urban centres, understand not only landscapes and watersheds but also how management actions on the part of farmers and ranchers can enhance watershed quality and quantity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Mr. Toet, your time has expired.

Mr. Choquette, you have five minutes.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I now have some questions for the Calgary Zoo representatives.

I am quite pleased to see the work you are doing. I will definitely return to Calgary to visit your zoo. You seem to be doing very valuable and fascinating work.

Yesterday, I met an urban park and nature area expert. Your extensive conservation program is more animal based, but I noticed that the island where the zoo is located is a wonderful place. It has a whole ecosystem.

As far as urban parks go, more and more, should we take an approach that focuses on natural areas, as we heard yesterday from Marie Tremblay, who did a Ph.D. on the subject? She said that was the best way to protect the ecosystem. Do you have an opinion on that?

[Dr. Jake Veasey]

Again, I think we're quite blessed at the Calgary Zoo. We are set along the river, and we have beautiful trees. I think having that more naturalistic, green environment does make people more receptive to the environment.

I think traditionally the Victorian-era zoos were far more formal. I think now, as we look more holistically at issues in terms of conservation, we're not just interested in species; we're interested in the environment of those species, where they come from.

The structure of zoos is becoming more naturalistic, and I think the same should be true of urban parks. There are environmental opportunities in managing urban parks in a slightly more relaxed, naturalistic way that I think have conservation benefits in themselves but also make people more receptive to conservation messages, because they reflect more accurately the natural environment than very well-mowed lawns and formal flowerbeds do.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much.

Indeed, as you mentioned, having as many natural areas as possible in urban zones would also help with what my Conservative colleagues were talking about, that is, educating the urban population.

To the ranchers, there is no doubt that you are conservation professionals. As you explained, it's your livelihood. So you have everything to gain from nature conservation; that is clear. There is a tendency in cities, however, to brush aside the importance of nature somewhat. It really is key to bring people closer to nature, to spaces that resemble natural areas as much as possible.

You said you had a program to reintroduce animals into the wild. Do you keep track of those animals afterwards? I believe that involves the use of what they call tags. Is there any monitoring? Could you tell us a bit about that?

[Dr. Jake Veasey]

We have a conservation research department, whose mandate is to facilitate conservation action within western Canada and internationally. The animal care department of the Calgary Zoo will produce animals for reintroduction. Our conservation research department is also involved directly in the monitoring of those animals and the success of those programs.

The Calgary Zoo's involvement in the black-footed ferret program, for example, is not exactly in breeding of black-footed ferrets; we provide the science and inform those parks and the other stakeholders on how to implement that reintroduction program. We work very carefully on the black-tailed prairie dog, which is the prey species of the black-footed ferret. We have an excellent scientific foundation on which we can provide the stakeholders the skills and the knowledge to make that reintroduction project successful.

So we definitely don't release animals and walk away. We're very much into follow-up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you, Mr. Choquette.

[Dr. Jake Veasey]

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I can assure Mr. Jamieson that we will do our best at using the logical-thought portion of our brain and come up with a good recommendation to the government.

Thank you again.

We're suspended until 2 o'clock.