Environment Committee on April 25th, 2013

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

I...perhaps not as well as you would like.

The problems associated with a loss of biodiversity are direct. As I pointed out in my presentation, the more pollinator species you have doing the work, the more crop yield and fruit set increase. You've heard of many other examples of this. There are very strong links between biodiversity and the sorts of services we like.

There are changes to the environment, such as climate change, causing direct problems to humanity in terms of our ability to adapt because of where we live and how the climate is changing. But these, of course, are linked, as you pointed out in your previous question to Mr. Chorney.

[François Pilon, NDP, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I will now go back to Mr. Chorney.

In your opinion, what type of incentive programs should be offered to private landowners so that they conserve habitats and apply stewardship initiatives?

[Doug Chorney]

The ALUS program laid out an excellent template to provide an incentive, where you'd look at the public benefit and the value to the public and the cost to the landowner to comply with the environmental outcome you're trying to achieve.

It has to make sense for the landowner, and every case is unique. If you take southern Ontario land costs versus Saskatchewan or Manitoba land costs, there is a different dollar amount to attribute to different behaviours that you want to inspire landowners to undertake.

But it has to be an economic success. I think we can take baby steps. We all know there are limited public finances available to deal with these issues, but a simple thing such as eliminating property taxes from land that isn't farmed because it is going to be put into an environmental stewardship program would be a good first step.

We know that in one municipality here in Manitoba they started a program under which they paid the farmers $40 per acre to store water and restore wetlands. They had a municipal fund to completely pay this cost. The fund was quickly oversubscribed and they had to turn away landowners, because farmers, given the little incentive, quickly stepped up to do their role.

It would be different in every jurisdiction, but I think we know that given the right conditions landowners will do the right thing—given the education and incentive to move in that direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Mr. Pilon.

We'll move now to Mr. Toet for five minutes.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all our guests here today.

Mr. Chorney, you touched briefly on the wetlands. Mr. Crabbe was talking about having to build arks in Saskatchewan over the last couple of years, and you're obviously very familiar with those same issues that we have in Manitoba.

You touched a little on the role the agriculture community is playing in Manitoba. I wonder about the possibility of expansion of that role in the rehabilitation of wetlands, which obviously would act as a great habitat conservation project but would also play a great role in flood mitigation and also in drought mitigation as we go forward. We've seen loss of a lot of the wetland habitat in Manitoba.

You just touched on it briefly, but is this something the agriculture community is ready to embrace, and is it looking forward to being part of the solution?

[Doug Chorney]

I think wetland restoration is an important issue, and there is a lot of talk amongst producers in conservation districts here in the province about how they can work in that vein.

But we have to take a total watershed approach. If Manitoba did everything perfectly, it would not have enough impact to really solve our flooding problems. We just had reports released, here in Manitoba, studying the 2011 flood events, and we know that there are things happening outside of our jurisdiction that affect what is going on here.

It would take some planned, long-term water storage to solve problems for the entire basin. The report suggested the Holland Dam, which was originally part of the Duff Roblin flood prevention plans formulated in the late 1950s or early 1960s when they built the floodway around Winnipeg; this was one part of the plan that was never completed.

We have such things as the Lake of the Prairies—the Shellmouth reservoir up in Russell, Manitoba—which helps the Assiniboine valley producers. But we have found, with all the extra water we were receiving from Saskatchewan in the last couple of years, that this system is not adequate to cope, so we need to revisit it.

Some people have chosen to blame the management of the Shellmouth reservoir for problems in the Assiniboine valley, but closer analysis and talking to the engineers who are studying these things indicates that there's not enough capacity in that system to absorb all this extra water. There's been extremely efficient drainage activity in Saskatchewan. Farmers used to think that when they got a land scraper and made a little cut in their field to drain a low spot, they were doing things. But I understand that in Saskatchewan they have excavators and Cats digging major channels to divert water to Manitoba as fast as possible.

All this water coming at us is of real concern to our Manitoba farmers. I don't think we can expect landowners in Saskatchewan to hold water for free; nor should we expect Manitoba landowners to do so. This is an area in which we need to factor in how much it is really costing us, through AgriRecovery programs and disaster financial assistance, to deal with these excess water events. If we spent that money up front and undertook some deliberate water storage projects, perhaps we could avoid the recurring cost and in fact treat the problem rather than the symptom. We have pretty significant costs, with Manitoba now at $1.2 billion as their estimated cost for the 2011 flood.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'm sure you must be very happy to hear, then, that the Conservative government is working towards a great amount of funding for permanent mitigation measures. This would fall under that umbrella, so I think it's a great step going forward.

Mr. Crabbe, this ties in a little bit. In your introduction you talked about the connectivity program in Saskatchewan; you touched on it but never built on it. I see connectivity as being an important issue, but maybe you could respond a little bit on the role of Saskatchewan, as part of the watershed that's draining into the lakes in Manitoba, in wetlands rehabilitation, along with this connectivity aspect.

Can you give us some insight into Saskatchewan's stance on this?

[Darrell Crabbe]

Do you mean, on the connectivity program?

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

You talked about a connectivity program, but I mean also on your ability to participate in some of the wetlands rehabilitation that is required. As Mr. Chorney said, we can't hold it all in Manitoba; there is a role for everybody to play here.

[Darrell Crabbe]

I can certainly report to you that it's a huge issue here in Saskatchewan. Illegal drainage is the primary culprit we're trying to deal with. No one has ever been charged in Saskatchewan for illegal drainage; however, we certainly have rules and laws in place to deal with it.

As we speak, almost 50% of the wetlands in Saskatchewan have been eliminated over the last 40 years. Actually, the percentage might be a little higher. We have been trying to develop incentives in Saskatchewan through the ALUS program. Right now, it's the number one pilot project we're using to look at those issues, to develop wetlands where wetlands have been drained and maintain existing ones that are functioning. It certainly is a huge problem. We recognize, from the conservation community, the effects we're having on Manitoba.

Mr. Chorney brought up Lake of the Prairies as an example. To try to mitigate some of these actions, they drained Lake of the Prairies to the point that we just had a huge fish die-off there, because they had drained it in order to capture some of the potential run-off.

These types of issues are commonplace in Saskatchewan because of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Mr. Toet. Your time is up. We'll have to move on to our next witness, Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you very much. I'd like to question Dr. Mooers regarding the idea of the full implementation of SARA. I assume you're familiar with the goshawk issue in British Colombia?

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

Can you refresh me on the goshawk?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Sure. The goshawk is a ubiquitous species across the country; I've even got some on my farm. COSEWIC has deemed a subspecies of goshawk, or a population of goshawk, to be a SARA-listed species. I had meetings with forest companies from that area, having been in the forest industry myself in the past, and I saw the maps that the recovery plan is suggesting of areas that are off limits to sound forestry activities. If a fully implemented SARA were fully implemented in that particular area, 3,000 jobs would be lost immediately.

Do you think those 3,000 jobs and 3,000 families are important?

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

Of course I think those 3,000 jobs are important. I think the current instantiation of SARA allows for a regulatory impact assessment statement. I don't believe the goshawk population has actually been officially listed. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Again, this points to the flaws in SARA. Back when I was in the forest industry, I was part of the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association's team that was evaluating initial drafts of the act. We begged the Liberal government of the day not to do what they did with this particular act. We predicted that all of these things were going to happen.

But this is a real life example, not some kind of academic exercise regarding a subspecies of a bird. These are real people, real lives, real communities. That's one of the reasons that full implementation of SARA, as you are recommending, is very problematic and difficult for us. Can you appreciate what fully implementing SARA actually would mean?

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

I don't think I would be here today if I didn't feel like I could understand what I was saying.

I think we should be clear, first of all, that the goshawk population you're talking about has not been listed. There are provisions in SARA for it not to be listed. The federal government has that opt-out clause. It has nothing to do with COSEWIC's work on designating it as being endangered or not, so I'm not quite sure why you're pointing to this as a problem.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

It's a problem right across the country because many academic scientists, in their safe, tenured positions, take these positions on various pieces of environmental legislation without considering the community impact in the least.

Again, I'm surprised that my friends opposite who claim to be so caring about the working person and jobs aren't talking about these kinds of issues. Can you see that the community impacts of much of this legislation certainly need to be looked at? If the community impacts are unacceptable, don't you think that's a reason to change certain pieces of legislation?

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

I think we'd have to sit down and talk a little bit about the details. The federal government doesn't have to do anything, actually, after a species is listed. They only have to come up with a recovery strategy and an action plan. That action plan doesn't even have to be implemented under the current implementation of SARA.

I'm not sure that opening SARA up at this point would actually solve this perceived problem that you have. I would just like to add that I don't think it's fair to say that academic scientists don't understand about working people and jobs.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I represent a rural constituency and, quite frankly, I will defend the rural resource industries in my constituency and across the country with every fibre in my being.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should let you know that 320 acres of my land are under a conservation easement with the Nature Conservancy, so I know of what I speak. I live in a managed agricultural landscape with cattle production, grain production, as well as wildlife production close to a national park.

In terms of fully implementing legislation, would you suggest that the migratory birds act be fully implemented?

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

Do I suggest that the migratory bird act be fully implemented?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Yes.

[Dr. Arne Mooers]

Are you going to tell me that the Migratory Birds Convention Act is not fully implemented?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

There is a reason for the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

A quick response.