Environment Committee on April 8th, 2014

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all of the witnesses. Regrettably, at five minutes we can barely scratch the surface, and I have a number of questions I'd like to ask. I'll try to keep my questions short and ask for short answers, if possible.

I'll begin with you, Mr. McLaughlin. I have a note here about a project—total cost $611,000, with Environment Canada contributing about 40% of that, $259,000, between 2010 and 2014.

Does that ring any bell with you, and can you put a name to that for me? I don't have any other details.

[Chris McLaughlin]

I'm not exactly sure, I'm afraid. Does it refer to waste water upgrades?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Unfortunately, I don't know. So if you don't know, I'll move on. Sorry about that.

[Chris McLaughlin]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. deBarros, I was very interested in your comments regarding the link between mussels and phosphorus, because I've heard this from scientists. As I understand it, mussels will take in the dissolved phosphorus and then excrete it and deposit it in the nearshore and cause weedy and skunky water. That's my understanding of it.

Is that more or less correct?

[Conrad deBarros]

Well, I'd make one slight change. They're filter feeders, so they're feeding on the particulate that's in the water, the algae, bits of sediment and that, which they take it in. When they excrete it, it becomes soluble.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Right.

[Conrad deBarros]

That's one of the issues that lead to the extensive algal growth that you see in the nearshore.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So I understand the role of those invasive mussels in fouling the nearshore. Do you have a suggestion about how to deal with it, apart from, of course, controlling the phosphorus input into the water?

[Conrad deBarros]

What I tried to point out was that the information that was obtained through the intensive monitoring research work in 2008 showed that tributaries contributed 234% more phosphorus load to the system than point sources.

The way the study was done, they looked at various different landscape types and the impacts on the nearshore. They showed that the mussels alone were helping to get the Cladophora growth going, but it was also those tributaries, especially from urbanized areas, affecting the greatest amount of algal growth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm interested in knowing whether you have anything to suggest regarding the mussel problem.

[Conrad deBarros]

I think we're going to be stuck with them forever. That's going to be the tough part to deal with. Maybe we should be doing some research on something that's environmentally safe that can eradicate them. I don't know. The only levers we as humans have to twist or turn are the ones that we cause.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Ms. Goucher, I was interested in your comments regarding the Asian carp. I think I have a grasp of how the Asian carp will upset the ecosystem and possibly endanger native fish species, but since we're studying water quality, I'm trying to draw the link to water quality, and I wonder if you can help me understand. I can understand mussels and phosphorus. How do Asian carp influence or affect the water quality?

[Nancy Goucher]

Thank you. That's a good question.

One easy answer is that Asian carp produce a lot of waste. They're taking in 20% of their body weight in a day, in terms of food, and then they're excreting a lot that in an undigested form. What happens is that they make the water much more murky, and that also makes it harder for native fish to see in the water. Native fish need to be able to see to find their food. Where Asian carp have invaded rivers in the United States, they've had a direct impact on water quality in a negative way.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I was curious about your comment that the Environment Canada budget either is now or is shortly going to be one half of what it was in 2007. I wondered if you could give me the 2007 figure so that I could look into this.

[Nancy Goucher]

I don't have it on hand. One of the tricky parts of doing research for this is trying to get a nice, clear understanding of funding levels. That's why one of the recommendations I made was that it would be great to have annual reports that look at how much investment is being made in the Great Lakes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Okay, Mr. Woodworth, your time is up.

We'll move to Mr. Bevington. Thank you.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize to the witnesses that I didn't get to hear their testimony, as I was engaged in another meeting and wasn't able to attend.

Mr. Woodworth has opened the door for me on this Asian carp thing, and I want to explore it because it came up today in terms of.... There was a meeting held in Chicago in February on Asian carp. Basically they're saying that the electronic barrier that has been put in place is not adequate, and that it's likely to be inefficient in protecting the Great Lakes from the Asian carp.

The City of Chicago had suggested that they completely block all passage between the Mississippi River and the Great Lakes in terms of commercial transport, but that's been rejected by the business community in the Chicago area.

They've identified the problem as being serious enough for the City of Chicago to suggest that. Is there any action on the part of the Canadian government to put pressure on the U.S. government to initiate actions that are going to be completely effective in stopping these Asian carp, which are an absolute disaster coming into the Great Lakes?

[Nancy Goucher]

Yes, you're absolutely correct. The Army Corps of Engineers is currently studying how to keep Asian carp out of the Great Lakes. They have identified seven options for doing so. There's a range that includes things like non-structural measures all the way up to complete separation between the Great Lakes. There are two ways of doing that. One, as I said, would cost $15.5 billion and the other would cost $18.4 billion and would take about 25 years to complete. Currently they're doing consultation and looking at which option is the best to move forward with.

So you're right, and it's my understanding as well, that the shipping industry is not happy with the option of complete barrier separation, but a lot of groups do believe that's the only thing that will work in order to permanently address this problem.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

What's the Canadian position?

[Nancy Goucher]

I'm not sure if the federal or Ontario governments have officially responded to the study, but I feel that they should definitely be involved and be submitting an official position, because we have a lot at stake as well in the Great Lakes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

With this completely shutting down, is that a cost of $18 billion to shut down the waterway?

[Nancy Goucher]

It's a complicated process that involves a number of different steps, building reservoirs and building barriers. The other important thing to understand is that the reason these barriers exist is that there's a series of canals in the city of Chicago and the whole city sort of developed around these canals. In order to address the water movement between them, they have to adjust a lot of the flood damage and stormwater management in the city of Chicago. That's part of the reason why it's such an expensive solution.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Does anybody else have any comments on this subject? Okay.

Do you have any idea of how that's going forward? Was there Canadian participation in these meetings?

[Nancy Goucher]

There was one. The army corps came to Toronto last week and had one study in the city of Toronto, which I attended. There were a number of different representatives, mostly from the provincial level of government. I believe the next step is for them to take this to the U.S. Congress to decide on what options to move forward with.