Environment Committee on June 10th, 2014

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I'm far too polite to interject.

I would say to the critics of our industry, who complain about the price of food going up as a result of biofuels production, there is absolutely no evidence that supports that claim. Our industry has made note of the fact that the primary driver for food prices has always been the price of energy. Our industry is actually helping to make energy cheaper, and more plentiful, and more sustainable.

We only remove the starch from the corn. We return everything else to the feed industry. The dried distillers grains, which are a co-product of ethanol, go right back into creating meat for butchers and for Canadians. Cows and pigs absolutely love it.

The one thing I will close on is that the existence of the ethanol industry has created the demand for the grains that allows for farmers to get a true return on the investments that they make to their lands. As a result, they can in turn invest in technology, which will increase their yields. In Canada that yield increase has doubled in 10 years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

I have one quick question.

Over the course of the last number of witnesses we've heard three terms. One is “incineration”, another is “gasification”, and the one you used today is “thermochemical processing”.

Could you in a minute differentiate the difference between those? I think it's important that Canadians understand we're not talking about putting stuff in a barrel and burning it, incinerating. The gasification and thermochemical processing, to me, is a big difference. If you could you just summarize that in a minute, it would be great.

[Marie-Hélène Labrie]

The gasification process is a process that allows the breaking down of solid material into a gas, which is composed of carbon monoxide and hydrogen. There's not enough oxygen to burn it, so we don't produce CO₂. We produce CO. That's really key.

It's what we call partial oxidation. It's really just enough. It's like when you want to use a stove with your wood. If there's not enough oxygen, you're not going to be able to get a fire out of your fireplace. That's the basic principle of gasification.

There are different ways of doing gasification. Plasco here in Ottawa is doing plasma gasification. This is very high temperature, 4,000 to 5,000 degrees Celsius. We have a unique gasification process that we developed that operates at low severity, below 1,000 degrees Celsius.

Thermochemical is a combination of gasification up front, but then with other chemical processes that allow the transformation of that chemical-grade syngas into liquid products. Plasco can only basically burn its syngas to produce electricity. In our thermochemical process there are various steps after the gasification to make that chemical-grade syngas into liquid products.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

We're moving back into seven-minute rounds; however, we won't be able to do all of them. Since the Conservatives were given quite a bit of extra time on the last question, I'm going to give them five, and go back to Mr. Choquette for seven.

So five and seven, Conservatives, NDP....

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Generous as always.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Go ahead, Mr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Quick questions, then, Madam Labrie.

Could you repeat your second recommendation quickly?

I am referring to the second recommendation to the government.

[Marie-Hélène Labrie]

This was for provincial governments.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

For provincial governments...?

[Marie-Hélène Labrie]

Yes. This one was more about provincial regulations. They are provinces that are basically imposing the same environmental permitting process to waste conversion processes that are not combustion, that are not incinerators. But because they use heat, they fall under the same kind of environmental permitting process.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

So it's not federal?

[Marie-Hélène Labrie]

No, it's provincial, but I wanted to raise that issue.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I have a quick ask. With your technology, is there a size? Can you increase or decrease the size of your facilities? Is this a possibility for smaller communities? How big a community do you need for your feedstock?

[Marie-Hélène Labrie]

Our standard module is based on 100,000 dry tonnes per year. In the case of the City of Edmonton, for example, they already have achieved a 60% waste diversion rate, so we will be able to increase that 60% to 90%. You don't need such a large city, but a metropolitan centre of this size is suitable. We're developing a project in rural Mississippi. We're actually going to be serving seven counties that are working together.

It really depends, but we can also double the capacity by installing a second module. It's flexible, in that we can add modules, but the minimum is 100,000 dry tonnes per year.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

In my last question, I wanted to talk to you again, Mr. Thurlow, about how you confront the misinformation about your industry. As Ms. McClenaghan rightly pointed out, there was an observation that the cost of corn went up, and some people, without any scientific information, said that it was due to your industry and that's why we should get rid of biofuels.

I've seen this misinformation about your technology. Is it clean? Could you let us know? Do you have the NOx, the SOx, and the CO₂? Does it smell? Is there a net increase in greenhouse gases? Also, does it explode?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I'll go backwards on those. As a fuel, it is designed to work with gasoline in order to combust to create momentum in a vehicle. That's its design. It is very different from crude oil, however, in that it is biogenic. It will evaporate. It will degrade naturally. It's alcohol, so it does not have the same flammability characteristics that crude oil would have.

On the NOx and SOx side, absolutely, you see a huge reduction in particulate emissions as a result of advanced biofuel blends and higher biofuel blends. I think that was the point of our partnership with the Asthma Society. They recognize that.

On the GHG side, it ranges from anywhere between 60% compared to petroleum all the way up to 99% compared to petroleum. It's a GHG reduction that contributes to the economy and creates jobs, as opposed to critics who would say that GHG policy only takes away from the economy. I think the government should be lauded for the creation of the renewable fuel standard, which did in fact create jobs, particularly in rural areas.

Finally, on combatting the myths, I could, as a full-time job, just go from person to person and combat the myths that I've heard about our industry, all the way from teen pregnancy increases in North Dakota.... It is ridiculous—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[W. Scott Thurlow]

Yes, it is ridiculous, the number of things I have heard, but let me be really clear. We are partners with farmers, and farmers will feed people first. That has always been the role they have taken upon themselves as the stewards of our breadbasket.

We contribute to the agricultural economy by providing them business risk management solutions for extra crops as our yields increase, and they will continue to increase, as they have consistently over the last 10 years. We need to find new avenues for that fibre, which we create on an annual basis, to be returned back into the economy. Right now, we are growing more food in Canada on less land than we did 10 years ago.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Does your technology smell? Does it have a stink or something to it?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I actually think it smells kind of good—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[W. Scott Thurlow]

It smells kind of like beer, to be honest.

Also, certainly from more than 10 feet away, you couldn't smell it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Mr. Choquette, you have the last word.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to first thank all the witnesses who appeared today. It has truly been very interesting. We now see a little more clearly what role the federal government can play.

Ms. Labrie, I would like to go back to your recommendations.

You spoke first about supporting innovation. This is a recommendation that you made to the federal government. The recommendation on regulations is directed to provincial governments. The third recommendation, to stimulate next-gen biofuels, is directed to the federal government. I forget what the fourth recommendation was about.

Is it directed to the provinces or to the federal government?