Environment Committee on June 12th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

You have about 10 seconds. I think you're ambitious in trying to get four questions in there.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

What are the next steps on the CAP, the action plan for extended producer responsibility?

[Michael Goeres]

We just completed a five-year review. The results are going to ministers and will form part of the background for their discussion in September.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Woodworth.

We will move next to Mr. Choquette.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being at our meeting today and sharing their expertise with us. Their input is invaluable to our study on waste management.

My questions are for Mr. Goeres and Mr. Louie.

You talked about a report that I found shocking. I was shocked to learn that the Conference Board of Canada had released a report in which it ranked Canada the last among 17 peer countries in terms of waste generation.

I had wondered why a study on waste management was so urgent, and now I know. We have a lot to do, and we need to act as a matter of urgency. I hope the committee will be able to issue some solid recommendations at the end of our study given how serious the situation is.

By the way, it would be wonderful if one of you would provide the report to the committee so the members could read it and our analysts could review it.

My first question is for Mr. Louie.

You've done a great job, and your presentation was extremely clear. What is the federal government doing right now on the matter of the circular economy, which you described quite well and would like to see put in place?

[Raymond Louie]

Thank you so much for the question.

At this point in time we're not aware that the federal government is involved with transitioning from a linear economy to a circular economy. This is the first step we are taking, as the National Zero Waste Council, to highlight the fact that we've been working for far too long under the linear system, which is reliant on a very resource-rich environment and is designed to provide good service to our citizens without recognizing the end-of-cycle costs. So our hope is that through this effort today, through this opportunity, we can, in turn, engage the federal government in a more meaningful way.

I know that both in the U.K. and in Europe their national governments are much further ahead in their engagement with regard to extended producer responsibilities and understanding the upstream impacts of waste generation.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

If I understand you correctly, then, the federal government has not done anything so far in that regard; it hasn't had any involvement in the circular economy. I believe you included a recommendation on the issue at the end of your document. I am sure it will end up in the final report since you explained how the linear economy was no longer sustainable in the long run, either in terms of pollution or greenhouse gases.

I also noted that you pointed out the fact that waste management represented a huge cost for municipalities. I believe I saw somewhere in your notes that they spend $2 billion or several billion dollars managing waste. I wouldn't want to make a liar out of you. It's actually $2.5 billion that municipalities spend on waste management. Hence the tremendous importance of the federal government getting involved in the area.

You recommended that the federal government develop a national waste reduction strategy and introduce related incentives. Could you kindly elaborate on that recommendation and give us some examples of incentives the federal government could introduce? What might a national strategy look like?

[Raymond Louie]

The issue is that we are going through a consultative process with a group of entities right now. I think it might be a bit premature to give exact examples of what it might look like, but we do think the first step is to have a collaborative initiative that includes the federal government, and together we can design the programs recognizing the strengths of each of the organizations. As a representative of local government, I think it's the most respectful way for us as a local government to be engaged in that process when we have individuals come to us. Our local council is asking us to be engaged or asking us for resources. I think in the development of whatever initiative they're proposing it is important to have that early dialogue. We're actually asking for an integrated coordinated collaboration with the federal government at this point in time.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

I want to use the last few moments I have left to ask Mr. Moore a question.

If I understood you correctly, you made a recommendation about the role the federal government should play in the design of products and packaging to make them easier to recycle. Could you kindly elaborate on the importance of that and the possible consequences of the federal government not doing anything in that regard? Could you be a bit more specific about what exactly you'd like the federal government to do?

[Gerry Moore]

Thank you very much for the question. I guess in Prince Edward Island as indicated, we currently have a full recycling program for metals, plastics, glass, tires, batteries, and electronics, based on our size. But we find that a lot of packaging does not identify the type of plastic or material that it contains, so it's pretty hard to educate consumers in our province. Right now we recycle plastics numbered one through seven, but it's hard to recycle those if the packaging material isn't numbered one through seven, because if it's not, you can't identify the type. We find that there is a lot of packaging that is not identified or the identification is so small that the average person couldn't clearly see it without looking at it under a microscope.

I think it would be a very simple thing to have regulations regarding the size of the number on packaging so that it is clearly identifiable as a recyclable material. We can recycle it if we know what it is, but it's pretty hard to recycle when you don't know what it is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette.

Mr. Toet, go ahead for seven minutes.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

Mr. Moore, I just wanted to pick up on your last comments regarding the ability to know what particular plastic is in the product. We heard from a witness the other day from Emterra, which actually has a technology that will allow them to do an optical reading on all plastics and get away completely from the hand sorting. In fact she said that the hand sorting going forward is really not an alternative because of the cost of the human intervention. Are you aware of that technology or is it something you might be looking at, Mr. Moore?

[Gerry Moore]

I am aware of the technology. The problem is that in Prince Edward Island, we have a full source-separated program. What that means is that each home in the province is required to source-separate its waste into multiple streams, namely, compost, recyclables, and waste.

If Mrs. Smith in Charlottetown or Mr. MacDonald in Summerside opens up a package of Christie cookies and the loop or the identifying marker on the label on that packaging is not visible, they're not about to have an optical sorter to determine that. So what they have to do is....

If they're in doubt, we can't recycle it, when clearly it could have been a recyclable product if the manufacturer had simply made it identifiable as such.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's also where adaptability comes in. If there is new technology, sometimes we have to look at changing how we're actually doing things. Maybe the sorting at home has to be done in a different manner. I think it's just important to note that there are technologies out there. I agree with you that labelling is greatly important, but if we can find a solution to actually do it in a more efficient way rather than the hand-sorting, that might be something to look at very closely.

Mr. Louie, I want to ask you about your comments regarding working with the provinces and territories and municipalities. You talked about the collaborative approach and the need for collaboration on this. I think it's important to note that. I mean, you obviously would understand, it being a jurisdictional issue, that....

Being from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, I would assume you wouldn't want the federal government to come in and dictate terms to you on how you have to handle your waste in each individual municipality. You'd like some help and some guidance on that, but you'd like to be able to work together on it rather than an approach where the government would step in and say “This is what you're going to do”.

[Raymond Louie]

Thank you for the question.

I think generally I would agree with what you've said. There are instances, I think, where government of whatever order needs to make some very definitive decisions when they see the larger perspective—i.e., that costs to local government are very high and growing. Given the fact that local governments are very challenged economically right now, we are looking for every opportunity to reduce our costs.

So what we're hoping for is that—

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's all understandable, but obviously you wouldn't want us to step in as a government and take over that role as opposed to working with you on establishing ways of doing that in a more efficient way. I think we are all on the same page on that. I think it's just important to note that, because of jurisdictional issues, we cannot just step in and say “We're going to take over, and this is how you're going to do it”.

[Raymond Louie]

No, you are correct. It's not dissimilar to our hopes with wastewater treatment, where general regulations were established and we have to meet certain standards. Now we're dealing with that on a municipal level.

It's the same situation here for solid waste. We're hoping that we on the front end can develop systems in place collaboratively to meet the highest standards as set out by the federal government and provincial governments but keep costs low and provide better service to our community.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Goeres, you talked about Nova Scotia being the lowest and Alberta the highest, and you highlighted the difference. Through the research you've done, have you been able to determine what the differentiation is and why that is there? Are there some lessons to be learned from one jurisdiction to another on how we can improve?

[Michael Goeres]

Lessons learned is the exercise that we're going through right now. From the people I've spoken to, some of the reasons for Nova Scotia's relative success have been the regionalization of their landfills, the ban on organics and recyclable materials into the landfills, and an absence of the same kind of economic fervour that Alberta has.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

You also talked about the jobs in the recycling industry. You mentioned 119,000 jobs. You also talked about the increase in GDP by $1.5 billion.

That would lend me to think, as a businessman, that there are also great opportunities in this to attract business, that business would be very attracted to these industries, and that there is a real strong ability to make some money because of the change in attitudes and also the change in approach. Are you seeing that through your work? Are you seeing businesses coming forward that really want to work with you to create opportunities to actually expand and grow these industries?

[Michael Goeres]

I'm aware of a number of those. They don't necessarily work with us. I think Norampac, of Cascades, is an excellent example of one of those industry leaders. I mentioned a number of other companies in particular sectors that are doing all sorts of innovative things.

Some of the difficulties that recyclers in other industry sectors identify are things that are completely manageable—low or non-existent tipping fees for municipal landfills, for example, or the huge differentiation between Canadian tipping fees and American tipping fees when so much of our population is so close to the United States. Those are disincentives to do anything other than get rid of it somewhere else.

Our population is simply growing. The difficulty is that the growth in waste is higher than the population growth and is higher than the economic growth. This means that we have not rid ourselves, in any way, shape, or form, of the disposal aspect of our society, the “toss it in the bin” aspect. I grew up in the Bic pen and Bic lighter era. The marketing behind it was that you simply use it and throw it away. We still seem to have that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Mr. Goeres.

Thank you, Mr. Toet.

We'll now go to you, Ms. Duncan. Welcome. It's good to have you back.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

It's nice to be here, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their testimony.

Most of my questions will go toward you, Mr. Goeres, and then I'll turn to Mr. Moir.

Do we have data on pharmaceutical waste—residential, hospital, and industrial?

[Michael Goeres]

I'm not aware of the range of data we have. Through CCME we've done some initial work, related to biosolids, on identifying key contaminants of concern. That's generated a list. I'm not conversant with the range of data beyond that.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Could you table with the committee the list of contaminants of concern?