Evidence of meeting #31 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
I'll tack those 33 onto Mr. Bevington's round if that's allowed.
Thank you.
Conservative
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Thank you.
I'd like to first ask a question regarding a point you made that there are projects for which environmental assessments are not required. You gave examples of some large projects like SAGD and chemical facilities and so on. All of those projects would have to operate under an environmental licence, wouldn't they?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
All those projects would have to...?
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
They would have to work under an environmental licence.
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
We didn't look into that in our audit. We looked at the implementation of the new Environmental Assessment Act.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
But the issue is environmental performance, and all industrial projects in Canada operate under environmental licences with terms and conditions and guidelines for operation. They simply do. That's a simple fact. You would agree with that, wouldn't you?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
All I can tell you is we didn't look into that. I am assuming those would need provincial licences to operate. Is that what you're talking about?
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
The issue's not federal or provincial. The implication of your statement is that these people “get away scot-free”, and they simply don't.
I did environmental monitoring in the oil sands myself in a previous life, and I was issued a huge book of guidelines that industrial facilities had to abide by. The implication is that these people or these companies put up plants willy-nilly without environmental licences and without any environmental monitoring whatsoever, and that's clearly not the case.
I have another question. You made a statement about the federal government not doing enough to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and “fight climate change”.
In Canada what would a successful fight against climate change look like?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
What we looked at, Mr. Sopuck, is the commitment that Canada made to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions from the levels of 2005. The government committed to reducing them by 17% by the year 2020. We looked at whether or not the sector-by-sector regulatory approach and coordination with the provinces would get Canada to that level. That's what we looked at in the audit.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
But that's somewhat of a circular argument.
Let me give you an example. In 1989 the Mulroney government promulgated the pulp and paper effluent regulations mandating the installation of waste water treatment plants at all pulp and paper facilities. The environmental result was cleaner waterways that these plants discharged into. I'm interested in the environmental result.
The reduction of CO2 is a means to an end, and I'm asking you what that end would be for Canada. What are we going to see in a successful fight against climate change? I mean in Canada in terms of actions taken in Canada.
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
I understand.
As an auditor, I look at what the government said it was going to do, look at how the government said it was going to do it, and determine whether or not the government is meeting its own objectives.
The government indicated it was going to apply regulations for each sector of the environment, and we found that the government has introduced regulations for the transportation sector and the electricity sector. There are other sectors for which they have not yet introduced those regulations.
So the evidence Environment Canada has, their own data, shows it is highly unlikely that Canada will achieve the target the government set out.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
But don't you think that a regulation should have an environmental result? Again, your words are “to fight climate change”. I'm asking you what a successful fight against climate change would look like. What will we end up with? A reduction in CO2 is not a result, it is a means to an end.
What's the end?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
I'm trying to get a better answer for you.
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
Okay, Kim is pointing me to the first paragraph of our chapter 1. The impacts of climate change are impacts that are happening on the ground, and Natural Resources Canada—
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
I understand the impacts. How do we change the impacts?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
Natural Resources Canada released a report very recently on all the various impacts that Canadians are seeing now due to climate change. If we want to reduce the impact of changing climate, one of the biggest things we need to do is reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. The government has indicated that they want to do this. They've said it is important, and they've set out a regulatory process to do that.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
I'll be really blunt. Will reducing CO2 emissions in Canada change Canada's climate?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
The Government of Canada set out a target to reduce by 17% their emissions, based on 2005 levels, by 2020. The government will not likely achieve that target, based on data from Environment Canada itself.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
You talk about sustainable development. Can you define “sustainable development”?
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
There's a common definition out in the public based on the Brundtland Commission report. My description of it is the intersection between a strong economy, a strong society, and a healthy environment. It's the sweet spot in between all three.
