Environment Committee on April 23rd, 2015

[Nancy Daigneault]

I just want to start by saying that the fur industry in Canada has had the support of all three political parties, and the Outdoor Caucus Association of Canada. We have met with members of the NDP, the Liberals, and the Conservatives, and have had support from all three different members.

I think that if anyone is heading down a route of animal rights legislation not based upon sound science, that's a danger. Arbitrary bans and arbitrary attempts to change something that's been in effect since the beginning of time in Canada, and is sustainable and a renewable natural resource, is dangerous. Heading down a path where you're being driven by ideology, rather than sound science, and are not relying on the science but reacting arbitrarily is certainly something that should be a concern to everybody.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Megan Leslie]

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

Continuing with the five-minute round, we're on to Mr. Choquette.

The floor is yours; you have five minutes.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will speak in French so you could put your headphones on.

First, my thanks to all the witnesses for joining us here today.

Our study is quite interesting and we are also taking some time to look into the issue of habitat conservation and so on. We sit on the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. So this is not just an economic issue. We feel that it is really important to consider the issues of habitat and the protection of biodiversity.

I want to respond to some facile accusations that we have heard being levelled at the comments made by my colleagues in the New Democratic Party in this whole area of protecting animals and the desire to protect them. I am talking about household pets, of course. I have discussed all this with my colleague Françoise Boivin. We have no intention of criminalizing hunting, trapping or fishing. On the contrary, we are very well aware that hunters, trappers and anglers love animals, love nature. They are attentive to them and protect them; if they did not, their activities would no longer exist. I am sure that, for you, protecting biodiversity and wildlife is an important matter.

Yesterday was Earth Day. Just prior to it, we found out about the Conservatives’ 2015-2016 budget. It did not even mention climate change. That is why I would like to submit the following motion, which I introduced on February 5, 2014. It asks:

That the Committee conduct a review of the federal government’s sectoral approach to greenhouse gas regulations, and review the delays in establishing regulations for the oil and gas sector’s emissions.

So, of course, if Colin Carrie is in agreement, we could study the motion starting at 10:30 a.m.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

If we're to be doing committee business, we should go in camera. I think that's how we do it.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I suggest waiting until 10:30 a.m. to discuss committee business.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Sure.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I am sorry for taking a little time to talk about committee business.

Here is my first question.

Mr. Thompson, in the hunting and trapping sector, what are you doing to protect habitat? Do you play a role in that? Do you feel that you are actively involved in conservation, biodiversity and habitats?

[Gregory Thompson]

Habitat and biodiversity protection are absolutely essential to the foundation of wildlife diversity in this country, particularly habitat conservation. Healthy habitats across the full range of ecosystems contribute to wildlife diversity and for those species that trappers harvest and hunters hunt contribute to the abundance of of populations that are harvestable and usable.

In the hunting community and the trapping community we all pay our taxes. Those taxes contribute to wildlife conservation management programs across this country.

In addition, other examples would include the donations to many organizations—volunteer donations and time—to groups like the Fur Institute of Canada, to Ducks Unlimited, and to Delta Waterfowl Foundation. In cases of waterfowl harvesting, as the committee I'm sure is aware, the waterfowl hunting permit requires the acquisition of a wildlife habitat stamp that is administered as a separate fund through Wildlife Habitat Canada. These are all part and parcel of the ongoing contribution of the hunting and fishing sector to the management of the resource. Included in the management of the resource are efforts in place to ensure that the quality of habitat and biodiversity are protected.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Megan Leslie]

Thank you, Mr. Choquette.

We are going to end the public session at about 10:30 a.m. to discuss the motion that the clerk will circulate to us.

Thank you, and now we move to Mr. Calkins, for five minutes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's fantastic. It's great to get some more time here.

I want to comment on a few things that have been said here. It's unfortunate to see the line coming from Mr. Bevington that it's all about government programs. I think what really is at hand here is that if we completely shut down this industry, we would create a bunch of unemployed people, who can't get fair value for the work that they do, but now depend on a government program. Of course, that would require an increase in taxes, which I think just fits in with the agenda that the NDP has going along anyway.

He did bring up birdwatching, and that side of things is quite interesting. Some recent articles have called birdwatchers and hunters conservation superstars, because they're the ones that most likely contribute to conservation organizations and wildlife conservation, habitat conservation, and so on, which is a great thing. Lately I've also seen an article saying that feral cats are causing the deaths of between 1.4 billion and 4 billion birds a year in North America, which I think would be an anathema to many of the people who are contributing to birdwatching.

Mr. Gibb, you and I have set traps to deal with nuisance wildlife. What would happen if you or I were to lose the ability to trap nuisance animals, some of which are responsible for probably up to the death of 4 billion birds, I'm sure, much to the disappointment of bird watchers? If you were unable to continue to do that, what would the consequence be?

[Jim Gibb]

In just about every jurisdiction that has banned trapping, that decision has morphed into nuisance wildlife control work. One way or the other the animals are going to be caught. As I said earlier, the biggest problem happens when ordinary people take into their own hands how they're going to deal with problem wildlife. That's when it makes the front page of a newspaper, and a lot of times that's where trappers end up getting a bad rap because the public think it's a trapper who set that trap. In most cases, it's a landowner who is fed up with a raccoon in the garbage every night, or pigeons—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Or a coyote coming and killing the cats.

[Jim Gibb]

A coyote, absolutely, that's what I mean. People will take things into their own hands and shoot, shovel, and shut up, that sort of thing. Sometimes the racoon gets caught and runs away, or a cat gets caught and it makes the front page of the paper.

Legal legitimate trapping helps control animal populations. Having the ability to use proper tools and being able to be trained using those proper tools is a big thing.

Tonight I return to North Bay and I'm teaching a trapping course. It's kind of neat right now. I have four students and they're all under the age of 20, which is neat because, generally speaking, I'm teaching a lot of older people how to trap. It's really encouraging to see younger people stepping into the role.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Absolutely. I think there's been an entire generation missed to political correctness, much to the delight of folks like Mr. Howie who have tried very hard to end an industry, to end a traditional way of life. While they might seem on the surface, through “political-correct speak”, to have the best of intentions, they certainly, I think, end up creating through unintended consequences more problems than they solve.

Ms. DaigneauIt, I would suggest to you that if you want to talk about support and who actually supports.... I'm a member of the outdoor caucus. We had a meeting this morning where Mr. Izumi, who is one of the most well-known and respected fishermen in Canada, told us that the value of hunting and sport fishing in Canada is over $12 billion, more than twice what Mr. Howie tried to get on the record here today. So I hope we invite Mr. Izumi to the committee to set the record straight, rather than listening to the misinformation campaigns that some people out there actually—

[Michael Howie]

That was from a Government of Canada—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's actually based on Statistics Canada and Canada Revenue Agency documentation, so I'd be glad to have that on the record.

The rubber really hits the road because, while Mr. Choquette said that there is support for these kinds of things, it's interesting that the only witness whom they summoned today is on the record at this committee saying that he'd like to see the end of trapping in Canada. I would encourage folks to see through the political correctness. Just because you've had a meeting with somebody from the NDP or the Liberal Party doesn't mean you have their support. I think you need to be a little more sure of where your true support actually lies on some of these issues.

Regrettably, Mr. McKay isn't here, because I'd like to advise him. I could point out a lot of people he could meet and invite to his elite Liberal wine parties who would bring their fur coats, and then he would actually know somebody who actually owns one.

How much time do I have, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Megan Leslie]

A few seconds.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I'm running out of time. Let me just close by saying that I really do appreciate what you do. I appreciate the industry and the benefit it brings. I truly, truly hope that we can continue to get back to a situation where the industry can be more profitable, more successful. Through wildlife management techniques and the fact that it doesn't cost the government anything to let people trap, and by managing wildlife in a responsible way through those kinds of wildlife management techniques, I hope we can get back to sound economics where people can be self-reliant and do the things they love to do.

Thank you for coming today.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Megan Leslie]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins.

If I may, Mr. Choquette, I would like to mention one point.

I imagine the discussion on your motion will not take very long. So can we finish at 10:40 a.m? That would give us time for three more periods of questions.

If we say five minutes for discussion, that would allow us some more time for questions.

I see that you agree with that proposal. Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Bevington now.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

In all fairness, this is supposed to be a discussion, not a rant, so I'd like to go in that direction. I'd ask Mr. Howie to respond, because when we have people who bring up points, they should be able to defend them.

Go ahead, Mr. Howie.

[Michael Howie]

Thank you very much, sir.

Again, it appears that the Conservatives of this committee enjoy the term “debate” the same way my ex-wife did, in that I talk, you listen, and that's the end of the debate.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Point of order, Madam Chair.

I have listened to Mr. Howie smear people without specifically naming them before, but I object to being included in his smears. I have not yet participated in the discussion today, and I just think it's out of order for a witness to make blanket accusations against the members of any one party, particularly those who haven't spoken. I think it's disrespectful and it's insulting, and I don't really intend to sit here and take it without at least objecting.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Megan Leslie]

Thank you, Mr. Woodworth.

[Michael Howie]

I would like to offer my formal apologies.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Megan Leslie]

Thank you, Mr. Howie. That's appreciated.

What I might ask of all of us is to take a deep breath and focus on the issue of hunting and trapping in Canada per our orders and the motion that we passed. Maybe we can pull back a little bit from personalizing this issue.

Mr. Bevington, would you like to continue.