Environment Committee on May 5th, 2015

[Harold Grinde]

We have already talked about how almost every hunter belongs to some kind of conservation organization and puts money on the ground to try to improve habitat. I have been president of different conservation organizations, and lots of times we are handcuffed by government bureaucracies that won't....

For example, we are trying to burn sheep habitat in Alberta, on the east slope. We fight fires. Without naturally occurring fires, we don't regenerate the habitat. We try to do control burns, but we are really handcuffed and we are not able to put the money that we have raised onto the ground to do those projects.

Lots of times we are not able to actually get on the ground to improve habitat and do things. Conservation organizations do a lot as far as picking weeds in the mountains goes and doing all kinds of things like that. I pick invasive species weeds in my camp that have been brought in over the years on horse feed. We have that connection to the land as hunters and fishermen. I think that's lost on a lot of people. They think we are murderers and they need to stop us.

I think stopping us would do exactly the opposite of what they would hope. I think wildlife is better off because we are there, because it is in our best interest to manage and conserve that wildlife for generations to come. I hope my kids and grandkids are able to do what I do.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

That's a shameful attitude, but that is one of the purposes of having this study, so people in your community can actually have a voice and bring that forward to educate Canadians about the importance of what you do.

You brought forward a point that we really haven't talked about, about government bureaucracies and stuff like that. What would you say are the obstacles to hunting and trapping in the Northwest Territories? You talked a little bit about the parkland and the rights of aboriginals versus non-aboriginals. Could you talk to us a little bit about the obstacles that you face, government and otherwise?

[Harold Grinde]

As an outfitting industry, one of the biggest obstacles we face is—and I see it probably as a little bit of a plan by some people in power—the restriction my clients from the United States or somewhere else in the world face in transporting wildlife home. It gets a little more difficult every year. It's almost like somebody says if we make it hard enough, they'll just quit coming.

The same with guns. In Canada, we thankfully have gotten rid of our registry. Canada is very simple. We know what the rules are and it's easy for our clients to come to Canada with guns. We just had a recent scare. The United States was not going to let any hunters export their firearms unless they did an electronic export application, which basically they had to hire a lawyer to do. That's been temporarily suspended because they really didn't have the technology in place to implement it.

We see those things all the time. CITES for instance, allows us to hunt wolves. We do a wolf hunt in the spring at our camp. We have one officer in all of the Northwest Territories who can issue a CITES permit, and unless he's in the office the day my clients go home, then the hides have to be tanned somewhere in Canada and an application filled out. It's about a three-month process and winds up being about 500 dollars' worth of fees to take a wolf hide back to the United States. It's ridiculous.

Wolves are not endangered in Canada. They're really not endangered anymore in most places in the United States where they have habitat for them, yet we have these rules that have been implemented that are so rigid that we can't bend them, and it's a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Mr. Choquette, you have five minutes.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks also to you for your presentation, Mr. Grinde.

Thank you for being part of our work and for providing us with your testimony. Unlike my friend Dennis Bevington, I am no expert on the Northwest Territories. So we are lucky that he is one of us, since he knows the region well, including the status of hunting and trapping in that area and in Canada. Although I am not an expert on hunting and trapping, the conversation interests me a great deal.

Earlier, you mentioned the importance that your organization attaches to conservation, both of habitat and of wildlife. You do important work in that area, in my opinion. You mentioned the conservation work of Ducks Unlimited Canada. When people from that organization came to see us, they talked about the conservation plan, specifically with regard to wetlands. They also mentioned the fact that a lot of organizations had submitted applications but that very few of them had been accepted and been able to receive funding from the government.

Do you know what is in the National Conservation Plan? It provides funding to support habitat protection.

[Harold Grinde]

I am not familiar with the specific program you're speaking of. I know from the HAAP meetings I've attended in the last year, there are new government programs in place where local organizations can apply for federal funding to do habitat improvement projects. I think the government, if I remember correctly from the HAAP meeting in December, has renewed that plan and project. I believe it is ongoing, but I'm not familiar with any specific details. I've not been involved in an application.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

You mentioned the importance of scientific knowledge, but also of field knowledge and traditional knowledge. Does your organization have any links or contacts with the federal government or any of its organizations involved in conservation or science, such as Environment Canada or Parks Canada?

[Harold Grinde]

Not normally. I of course represent the people of the Northwest Territories on HAAP, so that is my connection to the federal government. As you're probably aware, almost all wildlife management in Canada is done at the provincial level, so I have much contact with the Government of the Northwest Territories when it comes to wildlife management policies and practices there. I have a good relationship with the co-management board. I've spoken at the management board several times and will probably continue to do so.

For someone in any jurisdiction in Canada to have much contact with the federal government when it comes to hunting and fishing.... It may be a little bit more on the migratory bird side, but not on other wildlife management because that wildlife management is delegated to the provinces and territories. There is not generally any interaction between hunters and fishermen and the federal government, but much at the provincial or territorial level.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

You highlighted some recommendations that you made to the federal government, but do you have others that you would like to make about your needs as hunters and trappers? What kind of support are you looking for from the federal government, whether it is about science or anything else?

[Harold Grinde]

If I had a wish list, number one on my list would be that somehow the federal government could entrench the right for non-aboriginals to hunt and fish and trap in Canada. I really think if we could do that, so that we knew that right could never be trampled on as long as there were harvestable, sustainable populations out there, we would eliminate this polarization, with this being all the way over here and the rest all the way over there: pro-trapping and hunting, anti-hunting, animal rights.

I think then we would come to a point where we would all tend to work together for the betterment of wildlife and for the habitat. But when we don't have that security of knowing that we will be able to hunt and fish as long as we do a good job of conserving wildlife, then we will continue to have that polarization and that fighting where we're really spinning our wheels and wasting time and effort.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Monsieur Choquette.

Mr. Miller, welcome.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thank you. It's good to be here, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Grinde, I really enjoyed your presentation. You obviously know what you're talking about. As somebody who's had a gun in my hand basically since I was nine or ten, I appreciate that very much. My limit of trapping was live-trapping the odd racoon or squirrel that was getting at my bird feeders, but I appreciate what trapping does in this country and its history.

We were talking about young hunters and schools and what have you. I certainly support that being available to young people who want to understand what hunting and trapping does for the country, but I just want to point out that family traditions are a big part of it as well. I know this from my own, but I also realize that not every family grows up with hunting as I did.

I want to touch on the cariboo in serious decline. Hanging our hat on climate change doesn't get it. Climate has always changed; it always will. I would like your thoughts on....

In my part of the world, rabbits, for example, have a cycle. When the coyote and fox populations are up...and if there's disease, if they get overpopulated, they look after themselves. We haven't seen many fox in our part of the world for a few years; you'd see the odd one. But because the coyote numbers are down, the fox have come back.

Would you agree that in most animal species—in Canada anyway, and maybe in the world—there is that kind of cycle where the populations go up and down?

[Harold Grinde]

Absolutely. There are natural biological cycles that seem to be present in every wildlife population. I couldn't agree with you more on climate change. We've had big weather events forever, and we'll probably continue to have them forever. Populations of wildlife are never stable; they are always in flux.

Little weather events in the mountains where we operate can wipe the sheep off one range, but on the next range they make it and they move over and life goes on. It's been happening forever, and I think it'll continue to happen forever, which is probably why the traditional knowledge in the territories says the caribou have come and gone before, and they will be back.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Right.

We have to support aboriginal rights to hunt, fish, and trap, but I can quite agree with your comments about non-aboriginals having the same types of rights.

I'd like your opinion on something, and I'll use an example. In Ontario, the moose population is in huge decline, more so than ever in recorded history, and there's no doubt the cancellation of the spring bear hunt in Ontario has been a factor in that. But with regard to the rules for aboriginal hunters, they're wide open. There's absolutely no enforcement. I'll tell you that the population is in danger of being gone if they don't look after it.

Do you agree that while native rights need to be adhered to, rules also have to be adhered to in order to protect the species? Could you comment on that?

[Harold Grinde]

Yes, and I know it's hard to infringe on constitutionally granted or treaty granted or land claim granted aboriginal rights, but in the Northwest Territories, for example, ultimately, the Minister of Environment has the final say in the management of wildlife. He just stopped all caribou hunting for all aboriginals because they couldn't come to a consensus on a management plan. He said that's it; nobody hunts until we come up with a plan to recover this population.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I wish we had a minister in Ontario—

[Harold Grinde]

I'm not familiar with Ontario, but as time goes on, especially in the north, I think public pressure and the light of the public eye will bring our aboriginal populations to the point where they start to work on doing a better job and not overharvesting when they shouldn't be. I see that day coming.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Okay. I have one last point, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciated your comments on hunting in parks, and I couldn't agree with you more given the experience I've had. I used to hunt with a gang up on the edge of Algonquin Park. Of course, there's no hunting in the park, but since the land we hunted on was adjacent to it, the moose travelled back and forth and they were the most unhealthy moose. They were overpopulated to the point where they were full of ticks and what have you. They would have had a much better and healthier population if they had allowed some hunting.

I know that's a provincial park and it's not federal, but it's the same kind of example. I think that kind of situation backs up what you're saying, and I appreciate it.

I have one last comment, which you probably won't agree with. If I were to book a fishing trip up in Mr. Bevington's riding, I could catch all the fish I wanted and have enough for a shore lunch, but I couldn't take any home. If the same thing were to happen with big game and the Americans coming here and what have you, what kind of effect would that have on that? Would they not come or would they still come?

[Harold Grinde]

Well, I don't see how you can hunt an animal...unless you're going to go to darting the way they do with rhinos in Africa. If they're going to take the life of the animal, then I think, obviously, they would be able to take the trophy home. Most of them don't take the meat home anyway. My statistics show that today, in the Mackenzie Mountains, the value of the meat we give to the local communities is about $750,000.

As long as they are able to take the trophy home, most of them will come. I have an American client coming this summer who comes for the meat. He wants the meat for his company barbeque and he comes to hunt a moose for meat. He could hunt one much more cheaply somewhere else, but he also loves the wilderness and the experience. That's the best way I can answer your question.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Mr. Miller, as a chair yourself, you're very adept at getting a few extra minutes in there.

We'll move to Mrs. Ambler for five minutes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Grinde, for coming to see us today and for your very informative presentation.

I find it especially interesting. I represent a very urban riding, so I listened carefully to your comments about how hunters and trappers and anglers are our best conservationists and how they appreciate and have respect for wildlife and take the management of that very seriously. We've heard that quite a bit in our study, so I appreciate the point being made.

Would you agree with me that it's one that perhaps urban Canadians—my riding is very close to Toronto—may not understand and that there's this fundamental disconnect? You did mention the separation of people from the land. I think this is a problem. In fact, I wanted to tell you that I regularly receive a number, not very many but a sprinkling, of letters from my constituents regarding the polar bear hunt and the seal hunt. They're often form letters.

Do you think it demonstrates a kind of fundamental misunderstanding that urban Canadians have about what you do and what hunters in Canada do?

[Harold Grinde]

Definitely. I know parts of the urban population still hunt and fish. There isn't a complete disconnect, but I think there is a large disconnect with a big portion of that population. I think it will become more so as they become younger. I see kids walking around today with their faces in their iPads. I don't think they have much of a connect to the land for the most part. It's hard for them to have. It's hard to imagine how they could have it. They really don't understand the tie that we have to the land and to wildlife.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Is this one of the things you might discuss at some point on the HAAP? You mentioned it a few times, and we heard—

[Harold Grinde]

We have talked about it a little at HAAP already. I would love to see mandatory teaching of the North American conservation model, the history of what hunters have done, in our school curriculum all across Canada, just to open people's eyes a little. When kids don't know that milk comes from a cow and they think it comes from a store, I think we have a long way to go to somehow keep our kids a little connected. It would be a starting point, to teach that North American conservation model in our schools.