Environment Committee on May 26th, 2015

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

So we're going from 749 megatonnes to 549 megatonnes. Is that reasonable?

[Michael Martin]

I think, as you may know from some of the analysis we've published, one of the challenges in this area is that it's not simply a question of doing a calculation based on where we were in 2005 and then doing the 30% below, which takes you to the target number.

In fact, as we know, there are constantly sources of growth in emissions that represent sort of the business-as-usual case as you referred to.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

But how can you then go and make a press release saying we're going to be 30% below 2005 targets by 2030 if there's no basis for the number, or there's a moving number?

[Michael Martin]

There is a basis for the number. A good foundation to understand the analytical base is the annual emissions trends report, which describes the measures in place through the provincial and federal governments. It looks at the drivers of emissions in the Canadian economy, and then, through a modelling exercise with certain assumptions that are made clear in that study, it lays out the trajectory, describes the impact of the measures in place, and then defines the gap.

That is the analytical framework.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Let's just leave it there. Can you undertake to provide the committee the number in megatonnes that the government is projecting for the target of 30% by 2030?

[Michael Martin]

Certainly. I'd be happy to do that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Minister, what is Ontario's contribution to this 2030 goal?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

As I mentioned in my remarks, dealing with the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions is a shared responsibility of all provinces and territories. Each jurisdiction has set out its own targets and is involved in its own initiatives.

I have not received the details of the Ontario plans in terms of its initiatives and how those translate to actual greenhouse gas reduction initiatives, but certainly it does have a role. It is a shared responsibility and Ontario is certainly doing its part in that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

If it is a shared responsibility, and I actually agree with you that it is, how can you therefore set targets of 30% by 2030 without Ontario or Quebec—and maybe it's different with Quebec—having committed to the same goal?

Is Ontario expected to contribute its share to the 30% target you've announced, and if so, what is it?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

In terms of what Ontario is doing and how it plans to contribute to these activities, I think that is a question for the Ontario government to address.

Several years back the provinces and the territories had set their own targets. They are undertaking their own initiatives region by region. Those vary across the country depending on the makeup of individual contributions to greenhouse gas emissions in respective jurisdictions.

The federal government is taking a sector-by-sector approach to reducing greenhouse gas emissions with the federal levers we have. We have moved on the transportation sector and the coal sector.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Minister, with respect, I get it. I get the sector stuff, but you have not apparently engaged the largest province in the federation in what you describe as a shared jurisdiction in announcing the 2030 targets.

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

The targets that we have set for Canada, the 30% reduction of 2005 levels by 2030, is a fair and ambitious target for Canada. The targets are in line with other major industrialized countries and reflect our national circumstances. There is much work to be done to reach the 2030 targets.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Is there any province that has actually agreed to its share of those 2030 targets?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

In terms of our initiatives, Canada has taken a leadership role in addressing the climate—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That wasn't my question. Is there any province that has agreed to its proportionate share of these 2030 targets?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

The environment ministers are meeting in Winnipeg. CCME is meeting this coming month at which time we'll have further discussions in regard to the provincial and territorial contributions related to this area.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That's good to hear, but it does seem to be that you made an announcement of what the target is and have yet to consult with the provinces as to what their contribution might be to that target.

I'll move on, because the chair is going to give me the hook any time now.

The projected emissions increase from the oil and gas sands are something in the order of 102 megatonnes between 2005 and 2030. That seems to be the best data available. What is the state of negotiations with that sector, since you favour a sector-by-sector approach? What is your state of negotiations with that sector given that recently, as of this weekend, Suncor said that they were prepared to negotiate, or to contribute to, or to participate in a pricing of carbon system?

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

You're well beyond your time, Mr. McKay. You were saying about getting the hook, so you've received it.

Minister.

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

As part of our sector-by-sector approach, when we announced our targets, we also announced three more areas of regulatory approach that we are taking. We're working with the industry on methane reductions for the oil and gas sector. We're waiting to hear back what the new government of Alberta will be doing in this regard. Again, in terms of moving forward in our sector-by-sector approach in the regulations, we are working with the industry in methane reductions in that sector.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move to Ms. Leslie for five minutes please.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome all of you.

Madam Minister, it's always nice to have you here.

I want to keep talking about climate change. I was really pleased that you referenced and discussed climate change in your opening statement. I have a different take on the targets, however. I wouldn't find them ambitious because I can't seem to find a plan on how to get there. I would actually call them unrealistic. When I look at your statement to this committee, there was a lot of discussion of past efforts and far in the future efforts. I'm wondering what the actual efforts are for right now.

You referenced coal. The International Institute for Sustainable Development has said that the coal regulations will have a negligible impact on GHGs in the next 15 years. Keep in mind that the target is 15 years from now. Fertilizer, sure that's great. It only makes up 8% of our greenhouse gas emissions. Methane leaks, okay, I hear you on that, I guess, but there are no regulations for the oil and gas sector. There are no programs for energy efficiency.

That $10 billion you referenced for renewables, I have the estimates here and I don't see that. I think you're referencing the amount of money spent on renewables in the past and not the amount of money that's going to be spent now.

How will you achieve these targets? In your sector-by-sector approach specifically what is the greenhouse gas reductions that we will see in each sector to get to 30% below 2005 in 15 years?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you for that question.

In terms of the renewable energy initiatives, I mentioned that we have put $10 billion into renewable energy. That program will continue under NRCan. In terms of the initiatives that were undertaken by the sector-by-sector approach, Canada was a world leader in banning the construction of traditional coal-fired electricity. We took the leadership role in banning that.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Sure, but that's 30 years from now.

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

It's still an initiative that reduces greenhouse gas emissions. Canada took leadership in that—

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

So how's the plan now?